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Post by tomoe on Jul 29, 2014 3:49:06 GMT -5
It is funny how we tend to nitpick any new costume designs for characters who were our heroes when we were young. It's as if we are trying to determine from one image whether or not the creative team that is bringing them to life (in film, comic books, what-have-you) is going to do them justice. We look to see if the creative choices they make reflect a respect for and understanding of the core of the character and wonder if this will be reflected in the actual finished work.
Unlike some, I do not have faith that Zach Snyder and David Goyer "get" Wonder Woman. I don't think DC in general "gets" Wonder Woman. Sometimes I think that their understanding of Wonder Woman's character starts and ends with the phrase "the preeminent female superhero", with the emphasis on the word "female". There were other female superheroes running around in the 40's; Wonder Woman endured and surpassed the rest for reasons that had nothing to do with her gender, and was an inspiration for years for reasons that had nothing to do with her costume (and before you bring up the bondage stuff, note that people got tied up A LOT in the Golden Age, Wonder Woman was one of the few who almost always rescued herself). With such a shallow perception of Wonder Woman, without a fundamental understanding of who Wonder Woman is and why she has resonated for decades with people, no adaptation or "realistic" update is going to work. I would rather see a completely new character than one who shares only a name and a few superficial physical characteristics with the original.
How'd I get on this again? Oh, right, new costume and the interesting way that a person's introduction to comics and superheroes can influence how they view later updates, incarnations, retcons, etc.
So, the kid who grew up reading reprints of 1940's Wonder Woman, watching Linda Carter on TV and buying Wonder Woman comics before, during and after George Perez's reboot really misses the colors of the old costume. The adult version points out that she's wearing armor and the only reasons to paint armor are a) weatherproofing (a.k.a.” I don't want it to rot”), b) camouflage (a.k.a.: “I don't want to get shot”), or c) identification (a.k.a.: “I REALLY don't want to get shot” or “Hey, I’m on your side - point that thing somewhere else”). Since red, white, blue and gold don't blend very well on any battlefield (especially in Zach Snyder's dark, muted universe), option b is definitely out and option a is probably out (really, why make yourself a target if you don't have to. Surely the special Amazonian rust-proof paint comes in earth tones). Option would require some convoluted explanation as to why is she wearing an outfit that resembles the American flag if she is coming from a society completely isolated from the modern world. So the adult version of me accepts the change (and secretly hopes she looks more like the hero and less like the warrior in the Justice League movie).
The kid version thinks the skirt is cool – much cooler than the bathing suit or the shorts. The adult version starts to argue about the outfits worn by Amazons of myth (who were NOT Greek) and the outfits worn by Marston’s Amazons in the comics…and then just concedes the point.
The adult version points out that the long, loose hair and gravity-defying strapless tops are completely impractical for battle. If she’s a warrior, she should be outfitted like one. The kid version disagrees vehemently because, quote, she’s Wonder Woman, unquote. The adult version thinks about it and then says “Okay, but those boots have got to go. They screw up balance, mobility and agility, don’t provide adequate protection to the whole leg and serve no practical purpose.” On this both versions are in complete agreement.
So, yeah, it could have been worse. Without that 8-year old lurking inside me, I’d probably dislike this costume (much as I did the ones in Sucker Punch). As it is, the only thing that makes me cringe is the footwear. (Seriously guys, unless those things are orthopedic boots made out of mithril designed to compensate for some horrible foot deformity, there is NO WAY you can fight in those things).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 21:35:48 GMT -5
I like the cut of your jib.
The fact that there's pages worth of discussion over nitpicks on colour, shape, weight etc etc on the internet says more about the "fans" than it does the creators and adaptors.
Its funny, SO many of the people swearing that Snyder and Goyer will fail and ruin everything are the same who loved Dawn of the Dead, a film that shouldn't have been remade but was and worked. And then 300. And then Watchmen.
All this hatred comes from Man of Steel. And Superman is a character people have had in their sights for a long time anyway. I hope somebody here read the recent Adventures of Superman #14 by Max Landis and Jock. By far the best defence and argument of Superman as a character I've ever read. So judging one movie based off another, when he's had more success then failure if you'd call it failure. The same goes for Goyer. He may have said some stupid things. But look at his bibliography/filmography. He's written both amazing films and comics.
Also tomoe, you got me curious about Amazons so I just got to some reading (at work woops) and, while not Greek themselves, they are from Greek mythology.
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Post by tomoe on Jul 30, 2014 7:34:32 GMT -5
I like the cut of your jib. The fact that there's pages worth of discussion over nitpicks on colour, shape, weight etc etc on the internet says more about the "fans" than it does the creators and adaptors. Its funny, SO many of the people swearing that Snyder and Goyer will fail and ruin everything are the same who loved Dawn of the Dead, a film that shouldn't have been remade but was and worked. And then 300. And then Watchmen. All this hatred comes from Man of Steel. And Superman is a character people have had in their sights for a long time anyway. I hope somebody here read the recent Adventures of Superman #14 by Max Landis and Jock. By far the best defence and argument of Superman as a character I've ever read. So judging one movie based off another, when he's had more success then failure if you'd call it failure. The same goes for Goyer. He may have said some stupid things. But look at his bibliography/filmography. He's written both amazing films and comics. Also tomoe, you got me curious about Amazons so I just got to some reading (at work woops) and, while not Greek themselves, they are from Greek mythology. Yeah, I suspected that I didn't make my point clear in that paragraph. What I was trying to get at was that while the Amazons are from Greek mythology, in that mythology they are explicitly NOT Greek. They are a foreign and barbaric tribe with customs, manners and dress vastly different from the Greeks. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say that Wonder Woman's short skirt stems from the outfits the actual Greek warriors wore into battle. Historic Greeks and mythological Amazons were depicted as having vastly dissimilar cultures.
However, in keeping with the theme, in the end the potential historic, artistic, or literary sources, comparisons or explanations for her short skirt just don’t matter to me. What matters is that the first Wonder Woman story I read was from her first appearance in Sensation Comics (reprinted in a giant monstrosity of a coffee table book), and in it her costume had a skirt. I have always preferred that to her later shorts or bathing suit style outfits. (Although, no, it doesn’t hurt that people from many different ancient cultures fought battles in what amounts to skirts that barely reached their knees.)
The main point I was trying (perhaps ineptly) to make is that there is no consistency, no logic, in what an individual fan can or cannot accept in the costume redesign of a beloved character. In some convoluted way it all gets tied in to that first moment when that character changed from being a picture or words on a page to being an inspiration, a motivation or a friend – something real. My Wonder Woman can ignore the laws of physics and common sense and fight with unbound hair and a strapless top and still be a heroic character that demands respect and gets results. She doesn’t need the bright colors to mark her as a hero (although I do miss them). She’s worn a skirt before and looks good in it, so why not fight in it? There is, however, absolutely NO WAY IN HELL she would ever wear those boots –they’re beyond impractical and are totally ridiculous (even if she’s been drawn wearing high heel boots before). See? No consistency, yet it all makes sense in my head.
As for the creative team behind the new movie, I truly do not like Zach Snyder’s movies (ANY of the ones I’ve seen). While they are visually stunning, they tend to lack substance, depth, maturity or character. I think David Goyer has good ideas. However, for some reason his scripts fail to develop them sufficiently or really use them in a substantive way. I liked the latest Batman trilogy, but more because of the directing and acting, than because of the screenplay. Man of Steel, to me, failed on so many levels - as a movie, as a story about superheroes, and, especially, as a Superman tale. So while you are looking forward to something that you are sure is going to be a good movie, I am gritting my teeth and hoping for a movie that won’t infuriate me. If we get a movie we can both enjoy, then I may have to reconsider my views on the nature of divine intervention.
I read Adventures of Superman #14 and really enjoyed it, but what does that have to do with The Man of Steel (beyond the fact that it stars Superman)? You kind of lost me there.
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Post by tomoe on Jul 30, 2014 12:34:43 GMT -5
um....so I probably proved your point that SOME people are so emotionally invested in the superheroes of their youth and turned off by the depiction of Superman's character in Man of Steel that they are unwilling to give Snyder and Goyer's creative vision a chance and have thus robbed themselves of the enthusiasm and enjoyment that should come from FINALLY seeing the DC Trinity in a live-action, big budget film.
Guilty.
For me it is not the ONLY reason that I'm not too thrilled about the upcoming Batman/Superman movie, nor even the MAIN reason, but I can't deny that their treatment of Superman is a significant factor behind my vague feelings of dread. It's not like I enjoy feeling this way. As much as I hate to admit being wrong, how great would it be in 2016 if you are posting about the awesomeness that was the Batman/Superman movie and the only complaint I'll be able to reply with is that the movie was too short.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 16:49:27 GMT -5
um....so I probably proved your point that SOME people are so emotionally invested in the superheroes of their youth and turned off by the depiction of Superman's character in Man of Steel that they are unwilling to give Snyder and Goyer's creative vision a chance and have thus robbed themselves of the enthusiasm and enjoyment that should come from FINALLY seeing the DC Trinity in a live-action, big budget film. Guilty. For me it is not the ONLY reason that I'm not too thrilled about the upcoming Batman/Superman movie, nor even the MAIN reason, but I can't deny that their treatment of Superman is a significant factor behind my vague feelings of dread. It's not like I enjoy feeling this way. As much as I hate to admit being wrong, how great would it be in 2016 if you are posting about the awesomeness that was the Batman/Superman movie and the only complaint I'll be able to reply with is that the movie was too short. Yeah, I think we are all guilty of being emotionally invested in these characters. But hey, why else would we love comics? And we are totally in agreeance about consistancy or logic with peoples nitpicks in certain areas of comics. If we wanted comics to be constantly scientifically and historically explains it would take the fun out of it. Like Marvel comics, the answer is generally "Because Science!" and we believe it because thats storytelling. Sorry I didn't mean Adventures #14 was in direct relation to MOS, more just the arguments people have about Superman in general eg; "you can't relate to him because he's too powerful" blah blah all that. I've heard that argument so many times now by both non comic readers and readers it's gotten kind of monotonous. Although he does have that one line to the Joker about how Batman is the one with the no killing rule, while he just 'generally' doesn't kill. And this does relate to MOS. People can say what they want about that film, Superman killing Zod cannot be brought into question from a characters historical standards. Whether we as fans enjoyed that decision or not is up to our tastes. But Superman has killed. The biggest problem is that in the comics, readers were and are given an almost instant follow-up, while that decision being placed right at the end of the film only to be continued in 3 years didn't help the outrage. By the way I understand there are other areas in the film and not just the killing aspect that people don't like, I'm just pointing this one out. Its funny I think the biggest problem with comic books movies, and that is it is really not a problem at all, is that the fans of the comics are so invested in the version of the character they know and love. That is a good thing for comics and fans. But it will always be the division in the films. Bob mentioned either in this thread or the Wonder Woman how the classic version and values of the character should be displayed. And that is true. But then you look at Batman, who originally carried a gun, threw people out windows and let people break their necks. And we all know that this is not THE Batman we all know and love. I think thats why no matter HOW much Hollywood tries, they'll never get THE perfect comic book movie. There are so many versions to take from. Like Man of Steel, while one person would see the decisions he made in that story as not classic Superman, others will see parts that are and also enjoy the evolution of the character to something different. I think the Marvel films are such a success because they've taken characters that weren't in the public eye before. None of those characters are as recognizable to the general public as the Trinity are. So most people go in without any preconceptions. I can say I've never read an Iron Man, Thor, Black Widow, GotG, Hawkeye comic until the movies came out. And I enjoyed what I got. I know there are people out there, kids even, who saw Man of Steel and it was their first introduction to Superman. And this may infuriate some people, but it shouldnt. Because someone can now stake a claim into a character so many already love. Regardless of the interpretation of it. Its a good thing. Either way, these films, and comics, shouldn't infuriate us if we don't agree with or enjoy them. The best we can do is ignore it like we do all the other art in the world we don't like because its not to our taste. Everything is according to taste and there are just some things we can't understand about others, but for the life of me I've never understood this anger that comes from people when they see a film they didn't like or that was disappointing. I understand its characters we're all invested in. But its an adaptation. Nothing more. We can choose to enjoy it or not. But if everybody constantly got angry about a book or movie or song they simply didnt like the world would be a horrible place. |
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Post by arcticbeast on Jul 30, 2014 21:05:45 GMT -5
Love the look of all the costumes. Can't wait for this movie to be released. Haven't been this excited for a film ever.
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Post by tomoe on Jul 31, 2014 11:28:09 GMT -5
um....so I probably proved your point that SOME people are so emotionally invested in the superheroes of their youth and turned off by the depiction of Superman's character in Man of Steel that they are unwilling to give Snyder and Goyer's creative vision a chance and have thus robbed themselves of the enthusiasm and enjoyment that should come from FINALLY seeing the DC Trinity in a live-action, big budget film. Guilty. For me it is not the ONLY reason that I'm not too thrilled about the upcoming Batman/Superman movie, nor even the MAIN reason, but I can't deny that their treatment of Superman is a significant factor behind my vague feelings of dread. It's not like I enjoy feeling this way. As much as I hate to admit being wrong, how great would it be in 2016 if you are posting about the awesomeness that was the Batman/Superman movie and the only complaint I'll be able to reply with is that the movie was too short. Yeah, I think we are all guilty of being emotionally invested in these characters. But hey, why else would we love comics? And we are totally in agreeance about consistancy or logic with peoples nitpicks in certain areas of comics. If we wanted comics to be constantly scientifically and historically explains it would take the fun out of it. Like Marvel comics, the answer is generally "Because Science!" and we believe it because thats storytelling. Sorry I didn't mean Adventures #14 was in direct relation to MOS, more just the arguments people have about Superman in general eg; "you can't relate to him because he's too powerful" blah blah all that. I've heard that argument so many times now by both non comic readers and readers it's gotten kind of monotonous. Although he does have that one line to the Joker about how Batman is the one with the no killing rule, while he just 'generally' doesn't kill. And this does relate to MOS. People can say what they want about that film, Superman killing Zod cannot be brought into question from a characters historical standards. Whether we as fans enjoyed that decision or not is up to our tastes. But Superman has killed. The biggest problem is that in the comics, readers were and are given an almost instant follow-up, while that decision being placed right at the end of the film only to be continued in 3 years didn't help the outrage. By the way I understand there are other areas in the film and not just the killing aspect that people don't like, I'm just pointing this one out. Its funny I think the biggest problem with comic books movies, and that is it is really not a problem at all, is that the fans of the comics are so invested in the version of the character they know and love. That is a good thing for comics and fans. But it will always be the division in the films. Bob mentioned either in this thread or the Wonder Woman how the classic version and values of the character should be displayed. And that is true. But then you look at Batman, who originally carried a gun, threw people out windows and let people break their necks. And we all know that this is not THE Batman we all know and love. I think thats why no matter HOW much Hollywood tries, they'll never get THE perfect comic book movie. There are so many versions to take from. Like Man of Steel, while one person would see the decisions he made in that story as not classic Superman, others will see parts that are and also enjoy the evolution of the character to something different. I think the Marvel films are such a success because they've taken characters that weren't in the public eye before. None of those characters are as recognizable to the general public as the Trinity are. So most people go in without any preconceptions. I can say I've never read an Iron Man, Thor, Black Widow, GotG, Hawkeye comic until the movies came out. And I enjoyed what I got. I know there are people out there, kids even, who saw Man of Steel and it was their first introduction to Superman. And this may infuriate some people, but it shouldnt. Because someone can now stake a claim into a character so many already love. Regardless of the interpretation of it. Its a good thing. Either way, these films, and comics, shouldn't infuriate us if we don't agree with or enjoy them. The best we can do is ignore it like we do all the other art in the world we don't like because its not to our taste. Everything is according to taste and there are just some things we can't understand about others, but for the life of me I've never understood this anger that comes from people when they see a film they didn't like or that was disappointing. I understand its characters we're all invested in. But its an adaptation. Nothing more. We can choose to enjoy it or not. But if everybody constantly got angry about a book or movie or song they simply didnt like the world would be a horrible place. Like the comment sections on the internet? |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Aug 4, 2014 15:22:38 GMT -5
An entertaining and informative round-table discussion about the Wonder Woman outfit over on Comics Alliance today; featuring, among others, Janelle Asselin, Dr. Andrea Letamendi, and Kate Leth, and it can be found here! |
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Post by rosscarter on Aug 4, 2014 15:42:22 GMT -5
I bet it will be more colorful when it's realized on screen. That picture has very stylized lighting making it almost sepia-toned. Even her skin-tone is void of realistic color in the picture, so I don't think we can trust this stylized picture to give us an accurate look at the color of her costume, just the detail Hey Ross, It's funny you mention that! This is not official, but over at deviantart, a fellow posting as "valdezign" has put up a"colorized" version of Ms. Gadot as Diana; it still has some problems (the upside-down head-piece, for instance), but the color really sells her as Wonder Woman, I think:  Ha! I didn't even notice the Lasso of Truth until I saw this colorized version! I bet the colors won't be this bright (it'd be cool if they were, but this is DC/Warner, not Marvel), but a compromise between this image and the official one. Well I'm crossing my fingers that that's the case, anyway. |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Aug 4, 2014 16:38:08 GMT -5
Hey Ross, It's funny you mention that! This is not official, but over at deviantart, a fellow posting as "valdezign" has put up a"colorized" version of Ms. Gadot as Diana; it still has some problems (the upside-down head-piece, for instance), but the color really sells her as Wonder Woman, I think: Ha! I didn't even notice the Lasso of Truth until I saw this colorized version! I bet the colors won't be this bright (it'd be cool if they were, but this is DC/Warner, not Marvel), but a compromise between this image and the official one. Well I'm crossing my fingers that that's the case, anyway. Ross, All things considered, it's probably the "Lasso of Coersion", or perhaps the "Lasso of Beaten-into-a-Confession"? Sorry for the snark, Bob |
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Post by arcticbeast on Aug 4, 2014 22:30:09 GMT -5
Ha! I didn't even notice the Lasso of Truth until I saw this colorized version! I bet the colors won't be this bright (it'd be cool if they were, but this is DC/Warner, not Marvel), but a compromise between this image and the official one. Well I'm crossing my fingers that that's the case, anyway. Ross, All things considered, it's probably the "Lasso of Coersion", or perhaps the "Lasso of Beaten-into-a-Confession"? Sorry for the snark, Bob Man Bob. Your not even giving this movie a chance. You thinking you'll go see it or are you gonna pass? |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Aug 4, 2014 23:24:49 GMT -5
Ross, All things considered, it's probably the "Lasso of Coersion", or perhaps the "Lasso of Beaten-into-a-Confession"? Sorry for the snark, Bob Man Bob. Your not even giving this movie a chance. You thinking you'll go see it or are you gonna pass? Luciano, Actually, I was just making a joke, hence the "Sorry for the snark" coda. Here's another rib-tickler: I am intrigued at seeing Wonder Woman appear in a feature film about super-heroes...so that's why I'll have to pass on this one! *rim shot*
Seriously though, I desperately want to see a respectful version of the Amazon Princess on the screen, but I so thoroughly detested "MoS" that I have little trust in the film-makers to deliver that. To date, while all we have is rumours about the plot, ten seconds of footage, and some static imagery, they do all point to more-of-the-same grimness, so it is going to take some good pre-release word-of-mouth to convince me to shell out the cash to go to the cinema, although I might try to sneak in to catch a glimpse of Xena...sorry... Wonder Woman. All these negatives aside, there's more of a chance of me seeing this "BvS" film than that "Faux-tastic Four" movie that Fox is making! ps) Messers Goyer and Snyder are always on about how audiences won't "buy" films with the tone of Christopher Reeve's "Superman" in this day-and-age; I wonder what they make of the week-end box-office numbers for "Guardians"? |
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Post by rosscarter on Aug 6, 2014 12:45:05 GMT -5
Ha! I didn't even notice the Lasso of Truth until I saw this colorized version! I bet the colors won't be this bright (it'd be cool if they were, but this is DC/Warner, not Marvel), but a compromise between this image and the official one. Well I'm crossing my fingers that that's the case, anyway. Ross, All things considered, it's probably the "Lasso of Coersion", or perhaps the "Lasso of Beaten-into-a-Confession"? Sorry for the snark, Bob Ha! No doubt she'll "Maxwell Lord" more than a few folks while Batman broods and Supes painfully screams "nooooooooo!!!" That seems to be the general tone of these things. |
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Post by Mighty Milton on Aug 6, 2014 15:54:22 GMT -5
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Post by scouts1998 on Aug 7, 2014 0:25:48 GMT -5
My guess is
Batman V. Superman: Dawn of Justice
SHAZAM
Batman
Man of Steel 2
Justice League
Wonder Woman
Green Lantern
Sandman
Fables
Dan Didio
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