bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74 
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Post by bpp on Jan 14, 2015 12:55:30 GMT -5
You might laud the creation of Kamala Khan, you might enjoy her book, you might praise G. Willow Wilson's articulate interviews but to call the character 'iconic' is pure hyperbole. It's daring anyone to shut down 'book of the year' claims based on a 'making superheroes appeal to girls / Muslims'. Which is a fine goal but lofting Ms Khan into 'iconic' status? On what basis? First she was a headline, then a decent mid-selling book with, hopefully, a slightly different audience base but no more than that. I don't see any evidence Kamala Khan means anything to those outside of her readership. She hasn't become a talking point beyond people invested in diversifying superhero readership. Calling her 'iconic' is rather emptying that term of meaning.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jan 14, 2015 13:22:59 GMT -5
You might laud the creation of Kamala Khan, you might enjoy her book, you might praise G. Willow Wilson's articulate interviews but to call the character 'iconic' is pure hyperbole. It's daring anyone to shut down 'book of the year' claims based on a 'making superheroes appeal to girls / Muslims'. Which is a fine goal but lofting Ms Khan into 'iconic' status? On what basis? First she was a headline, then a decent mid-selling book with, hopefully, a slightly different audience base but no more than that. I don't see any evidence Kamala Khan means anything to those outside of her readership. She hasn't become a talking point beyond people invested in diversifying superhero readership. Calling her 'iconic' is rather emptying that term of meaning. Firstly, I think that we should all be invested in diversifying super-hero readership, as for the industry to survive, it's a step that must come, one that returns the readership to the broadest possible range of demographics. If, as you suggest, Ms. Marvel has "...a slightly different audience base...", that's already a great positive; when the (as I perceive it) high quality of the work is added, those are two important boxes to check off. (Merriam-Webster: iconic: 2b- widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence) |
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Post by toxicsooner on Jan 14, 2015 14:17:15 GMT -5
You might laud the creation of Kamala Khan, you might enjoy her book, you might praise G. Willow Wilson's articulate interviews but to call the character 'iconic' is pure hyperbole. It's daring anyone to shut down 'book of the year' claims based on a 'making superheroes appeal to girls / Muslims'. Which is a fine goal but lofting Ms Khan into 'iconic' status? On what basis? First she was a headline, then a decent mid-selling book with, hopefully, a slightly different audience base but no more than that. I don't see any evidence Kamala Khan means anything to those outside of her readership. She hasn't become a talking point beyond people invested in diversifying superhero readership. Calling her 'iconic' is rather emptying that term of meaning. Firstly, I think that we should all be invested in diversifying super-hero readership, as for the industry to survive, it's a step that must come, one that returns the readership to the broadest possible range of demographics. If, as you suggest, Ms. Marvel has "...a slightly different audience base...", that's already a great positive; when the (as I perceive it) high quality of the work is added, those are two important boxes to check off. (Merriam-Webster: iconic: 2b- widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence) I think each of you have some very good points that I would like to expand upon. First, I will address some of the things BPP has said. In a world of hyper information and social media, I would say it is hard to disagree with the overwhelming love and praise for this book. Whether your personal opinion is good, bad or indifferent is really inconsequential. For the calendar year of 2014, which is what this show encompassed with its awards, it is hard to argue any praise or awards this book or creators receive, they are given purely on subjective judgment of those who are bestowing the award, praise, or criticism. To Bob’s point I do agree in the diversification of comics and characters is a very important and to stand on the status quo is counter intuitive. That being said, I do believe it is a little pre-mature to champion any book that is only in its infancy (12 issues) as “this generation’s spider-man”. Not sure if it was you or one of the others on the podcast that made the statement. I know in this generation of instant gratification we are quick to snap to a judgment and champion what’s great now. In summary, I compare Ms. Marvel to a rookie phenom pitcher that is explodes onto the scene. Everything is there for long lasting greatness, but the question remains is it a flash in the pan, that flames out or a sustainable beast and future hall of famer. While it’s fun to offer opinions and speculate, we won’t know until the future plays out. Personally I look forward to sitting back and enjoying the ride and I wish nothing but success to the book and its creators. |
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Post by BarefootRoot on Jan 14, 2015 14:17:31 GMT -5
You might laud the creation of Kamala Khan, you might enjoy her book, you might praise G. Willow Wilson's articulate interviews but to call the character 'iconic' is pure hyperbole. It's daring anyone to shut down 'book of the year' claims based on a 'making superheroes appeal to girls / Muslims'. Which is a fine goal but lofting Ms Khan into 'iconic' status? On what basis? First she was a headline, then a decent mid-selling book with, hopefully, a slightly different audience base but no more than that. I don't see any evidence Kamala Khan means anything to those outside of her readership. She hasn't become a talking point beyond people invested in diversifying superhero readership. Calling her 'iconic' is rather emptying that term of meaning. I'm not as enamored with the Ms Marvel book as others, so to a point I agree. However, I do see the potential for this book to become a new generation's spider-man as it seems to have a lot of the same qualities that made that book so groundbreaking back in the day. If spider-man could become an icon by inspiring an entire generation of comic readers 40 years ago, it's entirely possible for Ms Marvel to repeat that process now. So I guess the short version is even if you don't think she is iconic now (I personally don't, but that's just my opinion as the book wasn't my cup of tea), is it possible years from now we will look back on her as iconic in hindsight? |
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Post by Tony on Jan 14, 2015 17:16:20 GMT -5
I was shocked Rocket Raccoon didn't make any of the lists. the art and storytelling has been great on that book all year. Agreed. I've said it elsewhere more than once, but I don't mind repeating that those 6 issues are just about the most fun i've ever had reading a comic book in my 35 years on earth, and the art on it has been spectacular to say the least. I put it on at least a half-dozen categories on my own list, and I'm really, really surprised that neither it or Brian K Vaughan/Marcos Martin's The Private Eye entered into any of the conversations at all. |
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Post by toxicsooner on Jan 14, 2015 17:56:58 GMT -5
I was shocked Rocket Raccoon didn't make any of the lists. the art and storytelling has been great on that book all year. Agreed. I've said it elsewhere more than once, but I don't mind repeating that those 6 issues are just about the most fun i've ever had reading a comic book in my 35 years on earth, and the art on it has been spectacular to say the least. I put it on at least a half-dozen categories on my own list, and I'm really, really surprised that neither it or Brian K Vaughan/Marcos Martin's The Private Eye entered into any of the conversations at all. I agree on both accounts. Rocket is a fun book, I've always liked Young as a creator and Rocket is the perfect character for him. I can't wait for his new image series that was announced. I just started reading private eye (just finished #1). But w/ BK Vaughn as the creator I was surprised it didn't get any nominations on the podcast... |
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74
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Post by bpp on Jan 14, 2015 18:06:02 GMT -5
The point about Ms Marvel is that in the podcast G Willow Wilson is lauded as Writer of the Year because 'she has created an icon'. Not a character but an 'icon'. Now that must have some qualitative content or Lying Cat, Rat Queens, Coach Boss and any number of other creations are 'icons'. Is so then it's a redundant phrase.
It can't be simply because it is supposed to have brought in a slightly different demographic because that is simply highlighting a particular niche in a wider trend (Gotham Academy, Bat Girl, Squirrel Girl). If it's 'she was the first' then your into a debate that really she was no more than a continuation of Daredevil / Hawkeye Marvel NOW repositioning, the first to be so young a character but firmly within an already developed 'diversification' trend. And again the 'slightly different demographic' is mostly anecdotal. A great many books can be seen to bring 'a slightly different demographic', especially if you extend your vision beyond Spandex.
Has Kamala Khan suddenly become an icon in American-Muslim press and media? She certainly got coverage at the time of launch but I've not noticed anyone rally around her as a phenomenon in recent times of strained western-muslim relations. Is she a constant touch-stone for references? Is her audience mainly young female Muslims who weren't otherwise reading comics? I dont really know but I'm not that ready to accept it as fait in of and by itself.
Mostly I think a lot of this conversation around the revamping of Superheroes is, for now, aspirational. Far more good was done by Manga to get women and younger women reading comics than this very very recent trend that is far too young to assess the success of. Don't get me wrong, it's welcome that the trade seems to have been a good success, its just important to assess that in context rather than foster upon it an undue interpretation. There are a lot of good selling comics for female readers and for younger readers out there. It certainly doesn't bother me in the slightest that they are not reading Superheroes but other genres and stories.
To be an icon from the field of comics you need to be absorbed into the wider culture, the 'widely known and acknowledged' part of your definition. She's just not. Very few comic characters are. Furthermore for the character to be icon I'd argue they have to stand as an exemplar of something in of and by themselves. Not 'an iconic representation of X' (such as The Incal would be 'of European Comics') but of a wider ideal.. Like Superman would be (Truth, Justice and 'The American Way') or Batman ('Stoic and Brooding') or Judge Dredd (Merciless Policing and 'Justice'). Icons get quoted in Supreme Court judgements, they get ready and constant references in newspaper editorials and used as a simile in the general populations discourse. Kamala Kahn does none of this. Good comic? Yes. Good development in comics? Yes. Smart writer? Yes. Icon? Not by a long shot. Maybe one day, sure (although i doubt it) but now? To use in a argument as to who is writer of the year? Nope.
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Post by Tony on Jan 14, 2015 18:24:43 GMT -5
I agree on both accounts. Rocket is a fun book, I've always liked Young as a creator and Rocket is the perfect character for him. I can't wait for his new image series that was announced. I just started reading private eye (just finished #1). But w/ BK Vaughn as the creator I was surprised it didn't get any nominations on the podcast... Yeah, I mean, a nomination is one thing, I understand that it's really not easy to narrow down a long list to three short nominees per person (plus a wildcard), I myself have a very tough time doing that sort of culling (though for Digital/Web Comics, that becomes much easier, and The Private Eye is an absolute shoe-in, especially, as you mentioned, given the name and stature of the creative team), but at the very least I expected a mention in the conversation, even if not a nomination. How you can have hours of conversation about the best comics of 2014 and not even name-drop Rocket or The Private Eye a single time is totally beyond me, even if it's in the 'also ran/loose mentions/didn't quite make the cut' parts of the chat. |
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74
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Post by bpp on Jan 14, 2015 19:06:23 GMT -5
I agree on both accounts. Rocket is a fun book, I've always liked Young as a creator and Rocket is the perfect character for him. I can't wait for his new image series that was announced. I just started reading private eye (just finished #1). But w/ BK Vaughn as the creator I was surprised it didn't get any nominations on the podcast... How you can have hours of conversation about the best comics of 2014 and not even name-drop Rocket or The Private Eye a single time is totally beyond me, even if it's in the 'also ran/loose mentions/didn't quite make the cut' parts of the chat. I think a large part of the problem is that the 3 elimination shows just went on too long. Please don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of the show. I certainly don't agree with all of what is said but I think it is one of the better comics podcasts around. However these three shows became over six hours of talking fairly repetitively over the same material. The fault maybe lies with the 'nominate three' format rather than taking six hours per se. I also think some limiting of multiple nominations could have gone on. When a title gets debated for best issue, best overall comic, best author and best artist people are pretty played out. When nominating stuff in my own list on the listeners forum thread I made sure not to select a book for more than one category. It widens recognition and diversifies dialogue. It also forces you to think more about the year. And frankly, no mention of Geoff Darrow? (three Shaolin Cowboy issues, a Big Boy comic in DHP and a compendium of past work)... seeesh. (To be fair on The Private Eye - I think after issue one it was pretty much ignored in comics media. Something about its format seemed to render it 'a thing thats out there' rather than something people went back to. Again the problem being the hype of the Big Two machine and the cycle of #1's sucking up space. Personally I'm always more interested in where a comic is after three issues (my usual 'keep or drop' calculation time) or at the end of an arc than I am in more reviews of number ones (which really seldom are bad or critical, at most a 'i'm not feeling it'). By 60 plus pages much more interesting comments and analysis can be made.) |
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Post by Tony on Jan 14, 2015 20:47:31 GMT -5
(To be fair on The Private Eye - I think after issue one it was pretty much ignored in comics media. Something about its format seemed to render it 'a thing thats out there' rather than something people went back to. Again the problem being the hype of the Big Two machine and the cycle of #1's sucking up space. Personally I'm always more interested in where a comic is after three issues (my usual 'keep or drop' calculation time) or at the end of an arc than I am in more reviews of number ones (which really seldom are bad or critical, at most a 'i'm not feeling it'). By 60 plus pages much more interesting comments and analysis can be made.) You're absolutely right that it has been mostly ignored in comics media, and that the Big Two hype machine is a huge part of that, and I would say that its digital-only format is also a big part of that, but I don't see why that ought to affect people who are big-time readers and lovers of comics and who spend a huge chunk of their time with their ear to the proverbial ground, reading, discussing, podcasting and such, ya know? And I think of this show and its hosts as being fans and readers, not as "comics media" in any sort of mainstream or pro or industry way; that's definitely part of why I love the show. They frequently will talk about and bring to the table comics (especially web comics) that i've never heard of, that aren't Big Two, and that maybe aren't even on the shelves of my FLCS. So i'm still scratching my head that it's so flown under even their radar. I read maybe 2-6 books a week; that's meager compared to most of the people on here, and it's extremely meager compared to what Bob, Steph, Bobby, and Steve read most weeks. So when there's something that I'm hip to, something -in this case- by Brian K Vaughan and Marcos fucking Martin that's totally brilliant and relevant and amazing, and that flies under their radar, that seems really weird to me. Know what I mean? I dunno, i'm beating a dead horse at this point, but that's where i'm coming from. |
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Post by toxicsooner on Jan 15, 2015 0:12:10 GMT -5
bpp I completely agree with your thoughts on #1 issues. Rarely do I base the merit of a series on the first issue. When you think about it, what make a #1 issue so special or good is it is the beginning of a larger story. But until that story has unfolded, unless it is a one-shot, #1's are normally plot set up and introduction. Don't get me wrong, a good #1 should grab your attention and pull you in, but if the series or even the first arc follows with a big bag of nothing, was the #1 really that good? Maybe, but you probably won't remember it.
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Post by Phoenicus on Jan 15, 2015 6:13:50 GMT -5
I was sad to hear Jamie McKelvie get knocked off the list personally..  |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jan 15, 2015 12:15:34 GMT -5
As the person on our show who made the initial comparison many months ago, (and one heard since from comics creators, executives and journalists), and as virtually the only person in our community who can say that they read the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Spider-Man as it came out on news-stands, let me say again for whatever it's worth, that I truly have the same feeling reading about Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel as I did reading about Peter Parker as Spidey a half-century ago, which neither sales figures or length of publication will affect. (As usual, your mileage may vary)
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Post by BarefootRoot on Jan 15, 2015 12:24:15 GMT -5
As the person on our show who made the initial comparison many months ago, (and one heard since from comics creators, executives and journalists), and as virtually the only person in our community who can say that they read the Stan Lee/Steve Ditko Spider-Man as it came out on news-stands, let me say again for whatever it's worth, that I truly have the same feeling reading about Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel as I did reading about Peter Parker as Spidey a half-century ago, which neither sales figures or length of publication will affect. (As usual, your mileage may vary) this is kind of what I was getting at: even if we don't feel it now, it's possible years down the road we are all sitting in Bob's shoes |
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74
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Post by bpp on Jan 15, 2015 15:21:09 GMT -5
so Ms Marvel is a great comic because it makes a fifty-something life long comic reader feel like he does when he was a teenage comic reader? I'm not sure I see exactly what you mean. I mean I know it sounds interesting but surely the point about Ms Marvel is that it's meant to be wonderful for exactly not you. Nor for all the 'comics creators' executives and journalists' who are similarly already inside the beltway. For the expression to have validity it needs to come from this group we hope are reading it and who everyone claims it's great that they are.
But even that is a bit beside the point as my issue was about using the term 'iconic' to shut down debate. That it's a great comic many enjoy is excellent. I'm not, sure it brings in any significant amount of readers who wouldn't otherwise be reading comics but I can no more prove or disprove that thesis than can those who claim it significantly inspires non traditional readers.
Anyhow, no more to say on this, more comics to be read instead.. Just finished the latest Witchfinder run... So many nice things in that book.
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