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Post by angelus104 on Mar 6, 2014 11:04:02 GMT -5
I'm loving reading all your reactions to the latest show. It's really amazing to see the different ways different people react to the debate. Please keep it up!
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Post by wjohnson22 on Mar 6, 2014 13:27:42 GMT -5
Overall, I enjoyed this latest episode. Even though I'm originally from above the Mason-Dixon line, I've lived down south long enough to sometimes be caught off guard by the directness and tough-love of northerners, so sometimes I'm amazed at the hosts' ability to get pretty passionate in certain exchanges during the podcast, and yet always bring it back to a friendly place. Plus, I appreciate that the show isn't scripted and you allow the conversation to flow. Even with preparation, I imagine that the conversation often goes places you didn't expect.
Usually I get a little stressed listening to discussions where emotions run high, but I've been listening to show long enough now to know that these segments/disagreements are pretty rare, and that you always bring it back around.
Regarding Eric Stephenson's speech itself, I appreciate that he called on retailers to be friendlier, more inclusive, and take steps to build community. As far as his comments about what comics are "real," my impression is that he wants comics creators/publishers to focus on original IPs that are then licensed into movies, tv shows, etc., as opposed to the other way around. I think there's a lot of merit in this in terms of fresh, original content, but the point could have been made without denigrating other publishers.
I realize it's his job to push Image Comics, but the quality and originality of most Image titles speaks for itself. And although Image Comics is now at the forefront of creator-owned titles and seems to be doing it best, companies like Dark Horse have been publishing creator-owned titles for even longer. Again, I realize he's trying to highlight Image books, but I think a "rising tide lifts all boats" approach is a better long-term strategy.
Anyway, I appreciate that the Talking Comics crew doesn't shy away from controversial topics and showcases a diversity of opinions.
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Post by deadanchoress on Mar 6, 2014 16:38:01 GMT -5
Heh. I either chose the best or the worst night to be absent from the show. That said, I am so proud of my co-hosts for covering both ends of the spectrum on this week's subject matter. In regard to the emotions being thrown around by the cast ... that's always been a part of what we do. In fact, our unabashed honesty is my favorite aspect of the Talking Comics brand. I'll be back on the show next week and thanks for listening!
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Post by bookend57 on Mar 6, 2014 17:11:38 GMT -5
There are two sides to every story.
Stephanie made valid points regarding the retailers and how it is partially their fault for the "Big 2" becoming just that.
The Bob(by)s were right in placing some blame on Stephenson for attacking not only super hero comics, but also licensed material as well. Those are both massive parts of the industry and if they didn't exist there wouldn't be a comics industry, period.
I forget who made the point, but there is something to be said about the large Marvel and DC displays stores always have. It is because the retailers get that stuff for free. If Image wants to have big beautiful displays in stores then send them things to display! Why are there no Forever Carlyle cardboard cutouts? Or the four horsemen of the apocalypse from East of West, or Alana and Marko from Saga, or better yet someone from The Walking Dead?
The whole variant thing...he wasn't wrong, but as a salesman it was a really dumb thing to say. I want to know why he said it and whether he was provoked or not? Kind of a backhanded slap at Kirkman.
More to the point Stephenson made some valid points about what's wrong with the comics industry, but he did it in a really jackass fashion.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 20:04:04 GMT -5
Everything moves in cycles. Whether its fashion, music, movies and so on. And comics is doing the same thing. And I'm seriously worried about where its going both from the industry point of view and the reader point of view. I don't want to belittle the thing I love but seriously at the end of the day... It's comics. They are little 20 page bits of colourful fiction that make us happy. Why dos this always need to be turned into a "OH BUT THIS IS BETTER THAN THAT!?" And this exact same thing happened years ago. Marvel and DC were putting out crazy events and gimmicky covers and Image was starting out and there was this elitism. But who cares. Some people enjoy gimmicks. 90% of the people here started reading comics because of men in freaking tights. If I want to choose a lenticular cover over a regular cover I will. But then you have the other side of people who love independent comics and do nothing but scoff at the big 2 and anything superhero related and it becomes all about elitism and whats "mainstream". Its freaking comics. Read it. Enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it then don't read it. The reason most people read comics is because they love the stories, they like an escape. And its scary to see that those of us who had to put up with the bullies and jocks of the world because we liked something like comics now have to put up with bullies just as bad but within the comic book community. Sure a lot of what Marvel and DC have to offer can be considered disposable. But so can a lot of what Image has to offer. I've been saying this a lot about music recently and I can't believe its bled into comics, but in Melbourne there's this whole big fad of "supporting local music". Poeple saying they love to support local music. I'm sorry but I listen to music because I enjoy the MUSIC. I don't go see bands I don't like just because they are local. Just like with Image. I'm not going to constantly buy every single new series because its NEW and INDEPENDENT and ORIGINAL. That doesn't mean its good. Liking anything in pop culture, whether its comics, movies or music, means a lot of sifting through crap we don't like. Thats life. Don't make other people feel like they are worthless because they enjoy something different. |
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Post by wylietimes on Mar 6, 2014 22:23:49 GMT -5
Towards the end of the podcast you guys mentioned how poor marketing is for comics. An indie creator named Joe Mulvey has brought this point up in the past.
Before his Scam series came out he bought a billboard in Vegas and advertised the book and a Vegas comic shop they had partnered with.
This year to promote a Kickstarter, the dude took out a 40 second ad on various radio including K-rock out west and WFAN 101.9 in the east.
His thoughts were if paper towels have radio ads why don't comics. He did this with his own money but imagine what a Marvel or DC bankroll could do.
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Post by lennyreid on Mar 7, 2014 7:16:59 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with a little tense discussion every now and then. I must admit to the debate making me feel like my parents were fighting at a point hehe All sides were viewed amicably and you were all able to move on. A sign of seasoned pros.
Viewed objectively, the speech will carry some weight if Stephenson puts his monkey where his mouth is over the coming year or so and it'll be interesting to see the knock-on effect with other publishers. I imagine DC and Marvel are shrugging and will carry on as usual. It has emphasised that the real power lies with us as the customer, if we can agree as a collective to oust the things we all disagree with from our beloved comics.
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Post by procrastronaut on Mar 7, 2014 8:24:32 GMT -5
I'm just glad Stephanie was there to make the points she did. I had read the speech before listening to the podcast and didn't see the comments Eric Stephenson made as an attack on anyone. To me it simply seemed that he was saying comics should be perceived as all they can be, not just the small corner of the market they're famous for. In this day and age where the average non-comic reader still perceives us all as extended cast members from the Big Bang Theory we need people to stand up and say things like this and when they say it they need to get people's attention. It did make for a lively debate though, which is always good fun to listen to  |
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Post by TealProductions on Mar 7, 2014 10:37:39 GMT -5
Stephenson's speech had many good and bad points. My biggest problem is that if I feel the speech giver is speaking out of both sides of their mouth I find it more difficult to see the positives in what they are saying. It seemed as though he was calling others to arms but many of the points he used for bad are things Image is just as guilty of as anyone else. Image is who Image is based largely on many of the good things mentioned in the speech but don't put down what others are doing unless you are free of that sin yourself. Otherwise you just come across sounding like a hypocrite and that reduces the positives you may have had.
Stephanie I'm sorry you at any time felt uncomfortable. I disagree in large part to your take on the speech but definitely want there to be times that happens and if you had not voiced that I would not have known. Well done hanging in there. Good on ya!
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Post by saucyimp on Mar 7, 2014 16:07:09 GMT -5
While I saw the speech more from Stephanie's perspective, I appreciated Bob's and Bobby's points on how Stephenson's words might make the creators of property books feel as that was something that never really came to my mind. Even though things may have gotten intense, I have a lot of respect for everyone being so honest with their opinions and emotions. Nobody should ever feel bad for feeling a emotion and expressing it, especially when it's done with respect and honest like you guys did. More often than not, people back down from a debate out of fear of causing a rift. I think it's pretty telling of the supportive environment you all have created that you both were willing to stand by your opposing opinions.
(There was a lot of "honesty" and "respect" in that paragraph.)
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repstones
Fearless Defender
Alright, alright, alllrigggght.
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Post by repstones on Mar 8, 2014 16:57:01 GMT -5
Hi guys, great show as always, plenty of food for thought.
As regards Stephenson's speech I particularly loved when he subtely shoehorned image up there with Marvel & DC <i>"One of the first things we need to do is stop looking at the comics market as the “big two” or the “big three.”</i>
His statement about variants puts the cart before the horse because retailers wouldn't order something if it didn't exist. In my opinion what Stephenson was doing here was basically flipping the bird, he knows it the fans who buy the variants and the retailers (in order to make money) have to satiate those fans. So by putting the problem for variants on the middle man and not the ppl driving the demand (the fans) was a bit disingenuous.
Stephenson did have some good points to make, esp with regard to the constant rebooting/renumbering/events that are an all too regular feature of this industry.
Stephanie was correct to try and highlight some of these positives. However I think Stephanie was also wrong to label at least 50% of comic stores as douchey or not catering to newcomers. Without a proper study indicating such, simply pulling a percentage like that out of the air is unfair IMO.
Bob, can't tell you how happy i am to hear that you're enjoying Mighty Avengers as I'm loving what Al Ewing is doing. I can't think of a book with more heart and charm on the shelves at the minute. That he's dipping back into the rich history of some characters shows he's putting the homework in.
Best regards to all.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Mar 9, 2014 12:05:49 GMT -5
Bob, can't tell you how happy i am to hear that you're enjoying Mighty Avengers as I'm loving what Al Ewing is doing. I can't think of a book with more heart and charm on the shelves at the minute. That he's dipping back into the rich history of some characters shows he's putting the homework in. PB, I was hoping that Mighty Avengers would find this groove once the various events had played out, and it's been even better that I expected it to be! Al Ewing's Luke and Jessica are creating a special sort of family within this new Heroes for Hire/Avengers mash-up! I fervently wish that readers would take a chance with this series, as it something quite unique! |
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Post by rcbtaw on Mar 9, 2014 16:30:57 GMT -5
Just listened to the podcast over the last two days. I have listened religiously for the past two years and was somewhat caught off guard by the debate. I wondered even before the podcast was over and all podcasters were attempting to "play nice" that maybe everyone's views had not been discussed before recording. With such differing positions that seemed to catch all members off guard, it was easy to see how vitriolic the discussion became. That is just my guess. I read the speech and came away understanding both sides in the argument.
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Post by sammiecassell on Mar 9, 2014 22:54:36 GMT -5
I agree with Bobby, if this had been Axel Alonzo or Dan Didio there would be such outrage over the speech. Also, you can't discuss the merits of the speech without discussing the negatives of it, to not discuss them would be a disservice to your listeners. A little "friendly" debate is always a good thing as long as it doesn't become personal.
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Post by JediHunter66 on Mar 10, 2014 15:00:03 GMT -5
Stephenson blaming people for buying 'bad books' is faily lame, and that's what it seemed he was doing. He was also pointing out licensed comics as 'not the real thing' that won't grow the industry. Readers do not care about the industry, by and large, they care about content. If they want to read a license, they will. I would say most people started off reading comics through a license, or from watching a TV show or movie based on superhero comics (and those TV shows/movies would not be the 'real thing' according to Stephenson). I also read X-Files. That counts as a sale and everything to my retailer! Comics don't have to be hipster-cool approved in order to put money into the register. he's also incredibly disengenous when he says he wants LCSs to make money and not Walmart/amazon, etc. That's not true, come on. The more places comics are, the better they will do, and the better LCSs will actually do, too. Besides Saga and Walking Dead, everything else from Image largelly sits on the shelf beyond a #1. They do their own 'relaunch' every 4-6 months with tons of new #1s. They don't have the same IPs, so people don't get on them about it, but they still do it. In the end, read what you want. I say that as someone who largelly reads indie stuff, along with Marvel. Belittling other stuff as 'bad comics' is a foolhardy strategy to appeal yourself to all involved. He talks about diversifying readership, but castigates people based on what they read. Finally, 60% of the direct market is still DC/Marvel, Comixology is dominated by DC/Marvel titles, and bookscan is dominated by Walking Dead, Saga, DC and manga titles. Oh, and KIDS books. Because they do read, but don't make up a large part of the Wednesday crowd. I agree with everything stated here 100%. As someone who buys the comics he listed as "Not real comics" I kind of took like a slap in the face really. I'm big on super hero books, its what I look forward to the most in my pull but I read A LOT of Image stuff too, my pull list is pretty diverse I would say from super hero to licensed but to say something isnt "real" or is bad is crap imo. The thing to remember is how many people started reading comics after they saw stuff like Star Wars and realized they could get more of that story in comic form and then branched out into other various books. I Loved this episode though, I agree that some shops dont welcome "newbies" at all which is complete BS. The shop I go to welcomed me with open arms and is always helpful to new people. The owner never sees new readers as a negative. The rival shop to the one I go to is the complete opposite, to put it nicely the owner is a complete asshat which is why I never go there or attend any of their signing. Speak with my wallet.  |
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