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Post by megamaramon on Oct 1, 2015 7:45:18 GMT -5
Deep breaths, guys, deep breaths.
It's time to throw out your theories, thoughts, and interpretations of episodes 7-9 of Puella Magi Madoka Magica.
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Post by redeyesarucard on Oct 3, 2015 10:13:55 GMT -5
I've been debating Kyubey's nature and the relationship between his "deal with the devil" contracts and magical girls intentions especially with these episodes. I think Kyubey being evil might be too much of a human notion, like Migi in Parasyte, he's a superior being with his own intentions and doesn't view humanity as being equal. He doesn't like or dislike them, except when he thinks he can get a particularly special one like Madoka. (reminds me of the Matrix as well, we are batteries).
In episode 7 Kyoko speaks more about magic girls hopes and the witches despair creating an equilibrium in the universe, but what happens when there are too many magical girls or too many witches? Would that be Kyubey's job to ensure it and who gave him that power/authority? Sayaka starts to regret some of her actions, like the responsibility of changing fate through magic and how in some cases she wishes she didn't.
In episode 8 Sayaka reminds me of an addict who cuts themselves for their "high", someone who cuts herself because she can't feel the pain of it anymore. She's coming to question what it is she is fighting for if she can't do anything more with her life, she keeps hurting her friends, and her jealously is tainting her soul (creating a curse). Homura even comes to Sayaka saying that if she keeps this up she'll do it(kill her) for her so she doesn't hurt Madoka, This is also the first time you see Homura with real emotions, when she's talking either to or about Madoka. Madoka even says to her "are you sure we haven't meet somewhere before?" as if she's remembering the dream.
Then episode 9, the transformation of Sayaka from magical girl into a witch. I feel sorry for her since you can tell she felt like she had nothing else to live for and wanted it to end. And of course Kyubey basically says he could have stopped it but didn't feel it was necessary (as one life to him means nothing but potential power and 10 humans are created every 4 seconds). And Kyoko finally understands that Sayaka didn't want to be alone.
I have to wonder, though, if magical girls become witches once they are tainted too far, and the more powerful the magical girl than the stronger the witch, if Homura is from another timeline which is how she knows about walpurgisnacht, and if we don't know how powerful Madoka could be if she became a magical girl couldn't it be possible that the walpurgisnacht is Madoka tainted from another timeline? That would explain why Homura doesn't want her to change into a magical girl, how it could change her fate. I didn't think about that possibility when previously watching the show.
Thank you guys for suggesting this one be re-watched, there's a lot more depth to it then I initially thought first time around.
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Post by graffitibandit1 on Oct 3, 2015 10:55:54 GMT -5
I am new to forums MY name is Dominique You can Call me DOM
my thoughts from 1-8 so far
the anime has a sense of dread post episode three where nothing gets happier and the results of these "young laddies" choices
are choice not made out of sane and mature circumstance which leads to the belief that kyube is the devil
from episode 1 kyube has been pushing this "contract" on these "young laddies" and as and in each situation they are
not fully inducted into what the cost of this MIRACLE truly has even Momi Chan (RIP) never fully knew the full extent too the contract
its like signing a car deal for gas gussler only to find out you cant back out the leasing "contract"
the second evidence is to the training of each "young lady" from Sakura ,Momi,kaname there is a limit to how much they know kyubee is never show interacting
with them beyond a medium to help them mentally communicate or be a (Q and A guild only when asked) There is never a point in the anime where kyubee actively says hay you will loose control hay i care about you as a person please take a moment and think these things though it is only
where in sailor moon the cat is actively helping them giving AID without them finding out later
it almost feels like he is grooming each one for their own downfall only giving information "not Advice or Wisdom to use such power" to become something more dangerous"
and with this Idea in mind this anime creeps me to my soul.
the reason WHY i used the word Young Ladies when referring to the( Magical Girls )is cause what DO Magical girls GROW UP TO BE?
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Post by spartan0325 on Oct 4, 2015 23:28:40 GMT -5
Update, I just finished episode 8. I'm pretty sure a show about magical 8th graders is about to give me nightmares....this is not ok! I don't think I've seen a show this disconcerting since the walking dead. All that being said this is a fantastic show.
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Post by redeyesarucard on Oct 5, 2015 6:42:34 GMT -5
the reason WHY i used the word Young Ladies when referring to the( Magical Girls )is cause what DO Magical girls GROW UP TO BE? That's an excellent question Dom. I only know 2 anime's where you see an older form of the magical girl (meaning you see them as a magical girl either middle school or high school age and then several years down the line after whatever evil they have faced is vanquished): Usagi from Sailormoon as she becomes Neo Queen Serenity and Sasami from Magical Girl Pretty Sammy who becomes Tsunami (this is a spin off of the Tenchi Muyo series). I'd be interested to see if anyone else knows of any. Also, that makes me wonder something else. The existence of Magical girls is a very Japanese concept, in western culture we'd just consider them all witches of some kind, but anime has both types (and I'm not just using Madoka as the example, but Soul Eater and Witchcraft Works as well as others have witches). It'd be interesting to see why they use one versus the other. Do witches implore a more adult stereotype? Possibly. |
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Post by spartan0325 on Oct 5, 2015 17:07:57 GMT -5
Having finished episode 9 I have to say that redeyesarucard(great name btw) brings up a good point in regards to Kyubey. We judge him as being evil by human standards when he clearly is not human and more importantly he doesn't identify as something with a "human" moral compass. To me this suggests that while he may act evil, his intentions may or may not be evil. This reminds me of another concept that I struggle with from time to time.
In the Halo video game franchise, players take the role of the Master Chief, one of several genetically enhanced super soldiers that are essentially tasked with the safe keeping of all of humanity from an alien threat. Players that continued to explore the lore of halo outside of the game and in the novels and such will eventually learn a ugly truth regarding the main character. Master Chief was abducted by the military as a child and enhanced by a procedure that killed a large number of the other children that were experimented on. The parents would never know about what happened to their abducted children because clones that would die in a matter of weeks or so were left in their place. To top it all off, while these super soldiers were instrumental in humanity's survival of the alien onslaught, they were created before the alien invasion even started. The original function of the super soldiers was to fight human dissenters and rebels.
Now the reason for my long winded tangent about halo is due to what I find to be an interesting moral question that I believe Madoka shares. I think it's fair to say that the actions of the military in halo are cruel and despicable. But on the other hand if they didn't do what they did humanity would have been long dead in the halo series.
In episode 9 of Madoka, Kyubey explains that that energy that is released by what is essentially the suffering of magical girls is used to maintain balance in the universe, or something to that effect. So, assuming that Kyubey was being honest, his actions, while incontrovertibly awful, are arguably for the greater good. Now what I'm seeing is an entity that does not share our sense of morality and is focused on the big picture, regardless of who or what must be sacrificed.
In a previous post I said that Kyubey was up to something and it wasn't good. I stand by my previous sentiment, he exists to sacrifice innocent girls, an action that is undeniably evil by our standards. But the question that I can't help but struggle with is whether or not this is a necessary evil. Is Kyubey doing what is necessary for us to exist? Do the needs of the many outweigh the lives of a handful of people?
I want to say no and that this is wrong and it shouldn't be done, but if the alternative is the death of everyone, in my opinion the evil of Kyubey's actions seem a hell of a lot less black and white. So what do you guys think?
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Post by graffitibandit1 on Oct 6, 2015 8:41:10 GMT -5
the reason WHY i used the word Young Ladies when referring to the( Magical Girls )is cause what DO Magical girls GROW UP TO BE? That's an excellent question Dom. I only know 2 anime's where you see an older form of the magical girl (meaning you see them as a magical girl either middle school or high school age and then several years down the line after whatever evil they have faced is vanquished): Usagi from Sailormoon as she becomes Neo Queen Serenity and Sasami from Magical Girl Pretty Sammy who becomes Tsunami (this is a spin off of the Tenchi Muyo series). I'd be interested to see if anyone else knows of any. Also, that makes me wonder something else. The existence of Magical girls is a very Japanese concept, in western culture we'd just consider them all witches of some kind, but anime has both types (and I'm not just using Madoka as the example, but Soul Eater and Witchcraft Works as well as others have witches). It'd be interesting to see why they use one versus the other. Do witches implore a more adult stereotype? Possibly. I'd be interested to see if anyone else knows of any. Also, that makes me wonder something else. The existence of Magical girls is a very Japanese concept, in western culture we'd just consider them all witches of some kind, but anime has both types (and I'm not just using Madoka as the example, but Soul Eater and Witchcraft Works as well as others have witches). It'd be interesting to see why they use one versus the other. Do witches implore a more adult stereotype? Possibly. / I think its a Japanese thing to make the girly anime or moe culture for it to be considered "Magical girl" you can see it presented in the female celebrities/Idols. Butt you do bring up an interestig thought about we never see the future where the charector is still going through something only after and before. I never really watched anime lie this until maybe three months ago. |
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Post by graffitibandit1 on Oct 6, 2015 14:21:00 GMT -5
Having finished episode 9 I have to say that redeyesarucard(great name btw) brings up a good point in regards to Kyubey. We judge him as being evil by human standards when he clearly is not human and more importantly he doesn't identify as something with a "human" moral compass. To me this suggests that while he may act evil, his intentions may or may not be evil. This reminds me of another concept that I struggle with from time to time. In the Halo video game franchise, players take the role of the Master Chief, one of several genetically enhanced super soldiers that are essentially tasked with the safe keeping of all of humanity from an alien threat. Players that continued to explore the lore of halo outside of the game and in the novels and such will eventually learn a ugly truth regarding the main character. Master Chief was abducted by the military as a child and enhanced by a procedure that killed a large number of the other children that were experimented on. The parents would never know about what happened to their abducted children because clones that would die in a matter of weeks or so were left in their place. To top it all off, while these super soldiers were instrumental in humanity's survival of the alien onslaught, they were created before the alien invasion even started. The original function of the super soldiers was to fight human dissenters and rebels. Now the reason for my long winded tangent about halo is due to what I find to be an interesting moral question that I believe Madoka shares. I think it's fair to say that the actions of the military in halo are cruel and despicable. But on the other hand if they didn't do what they did humanity would have been long dead in the halo series. In episode 9 of Madoka, Kyubey explains that that energy that is released by what is essentially the suffering of magical girls is used to maintain balance in the universe, or something to that effect. So, assuming that Kyubey was being honest, his actions, while incontrovertibly awful, are arguably for the greater good. Now what I'm seeing is an entity that does not share our sense of morality and is focused on the big picture, regardless of who or what must be sacrificed. In a previous post I said that Kyubey was up to something and it wasn't good. I stand by my previous sentiment, he exists to sacrifice innocent girls, an action that is undeniably evil by our standards. But the question that I can't help but struggle with is whether or not this is a necessary evil. Is Kyubey doing what is necessary for us to exist? Do the needs of the many outweigh the lives of a handful of people? I want to say no and that this is wrong and it shouldn't be done, but if the alternative is the death of everyone, in my opinion the evil of Kyubey's actions seem a hell of a lot less black and white. So what do you guys think? I think you are are right to a dagree butt kyubee is opertunist in his oproach most to all of them are either in dire situstions with no way out. Second kyuube if it were equal and wise in obtaining such power why not use make sure that the magical girl is well infromed of her new circumstances it (maybe this more to do with the series using relevant information as a plot point per episode) my last thought is about the existance of witches themselves like you said in halo master cheif were all sergically implanted and alternted to non human regnition. Butt the have ai conterparts to help hinder and stop them from going beserk. There is nothing like that for any of the magical girls all of them have to be infromed and gain knowledge from one another.The very existance of the magical girls and witches become a catch 22 where they fight to die to become witch to be destroyed by another magical girl who will no doubtably turn into a witch no matter the miracle the outcome is still dire to the recipient of the magic wish to become a witch. |
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Post by lordbrohamut on Oct 6, 2015 22:49:26 GMT -5
I have a lot of feels about this batch of episodes, Kyoko is my favorite of the magical girls, but Sayaka's character arc is my favorite in execution, so forgive me while I ramble.
Sayaka is sincere to a fault, she sees the world in terms of black and white with no in between. When she became a magical girl she used her wish to help another person, she wanted to be an ideal hero. While her wish to cure Kyosuke came from a place of empathy and sincerely wanting him to resume his life a small part of her wanted him to be grateful to her, perhaps a little indebted. This was not behavior befitting a hero, and so she was ashamed of those desired and threw herself into her cause completely. Sayaka is a character who could never survive in her world, she's noble and stubborn and uncompromising. Yet the very nature of magical girls in this world requires compromise. We see people like Sayaka who go out and hunt every aspect of evil, witches and familiars alike, because that's her mission, to hunt witches and save lives. But as Kyoko said, only hunting familiars yields no results, to mature into a fully formed witch they first have to take a few lives first, but that clashes with Sayaka's ideals, a hero would never let innocent people die, no matter the cost. I think that even if she knew the truth about magical girl and witches she would have gone down the same path.
When she found out that her soul was housed inside the soul gem rather than her body she ceased to see herself as a human, referring to herself as a zombie. All of her human desires meant nothing to her from that moment. It was in that moment that the curse was born within her, partly from a lack of cleansing her soul gem and partly from the constant stream of negativity and bad news in her life. It was after the experience on the bridge that Sayaka let go of her humanity completely and became a witch killing machine, as shown by the end of episode 8 in what may just be my favorite sequence of the whole series, the silhouette fight. Her final line in the episode is haunting and tells everything you need to know about her at this point, "I can't feel anything at all."
When I first watched Madoka, Sayaka annoyed me because of how uncompromising and stubborn she was, her fatal flaw was the inability to understand the moral grey areas of life and by clinging on to hard concepts of good and evil it lead to her demise. What annoyed me most about Sayaka was how her end could have been prevented if she had taken a step back and thought about the situation she was in. Sayaka was a beacon of light that got consumed by the darkness of the world she existed in.
This arc of the series is the darkest part of the entire anime, and the effect is amplified because it revolves around the fall of a character who so desperately wanted to bring light to the world around her. And for those who feel saddened by her end, hold on to hope, good things are in store for her in the movie! I also have just as many feels for Kyoko, but I'll save that for another post, if I get around to it.
One last thing, the final sequence where Kyoko destroys her soul gem and her essence curls up with that of Sayaka, that final piece is an homage to a japanese painting, but I cannot for the life of me remember what it's called or even find a picture of it. I only know I didn't imagine it because I saw it for myself on a field trip in college. Hopefully someone can figure out what it's called.
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Sarah
Fearless Defender
Higher, further, faster, more.
Posts: 17 
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Post by Sarah on Oct 13, 2015 8:02:40 GMT -5
I just finished watching episode 9 on my lunchbreak, and it was totally worth it! I had my suspicions about Kyubey being evil (those eyes!) but I actually quite like the idea of the moral ambiguity of him, as he does not work under the same moral obligations that we do. I felt sorry for Sayaka as she was trying to help, but her attitude was rather immature (IMHO) and the way she reacted to Hitomi saying that she was in love with Kyosuke just felt a little silly to me. Will someone let me know how old the girls are supposed to be?
The scene where Sayaka and Kyoko fight was excellent, and the music references were just superb, as was the variation on the theme song that accompanied it.
I still think that Homura is my favourite character, she seems the most together of all the magical girls, and I like the idea that redeyesarucard has posited about Madoka being this timelines version of walpurgisnacht, as this was something that had occurred to me too. I personally am looking forward to hearing what our lovely hosts have to say about these episodes, and to viewing the next three...!
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