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Post by iamasianbatgirl on Mar 16, 2015 0:38:04 GMT -5
Had this discussion with several people on Twitter but yeah, this cover actually makes me feel ill to look at it. While it's fantastically done, it's also horribly triggering for some people and incredibly inappropriate for where the book is at now. I understand that this is an iconic moment for both characters but this is a moment that's been played out AGAIN and AGAIN and it just feels like bringing this out just defines Barbara forever as a victim. Other Joker variants have the heroes triumphing over the Joker. With where Barbara is at in this most recent run, why does she have to be portrayed as a victim on the cover of her own damn book? I have no doubt that Brenden and the rest of the Batgirl crew are equally enraged and I'm sad that they will have to deal with the fallout.
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Post by battyfordc on Mar 16, 2015 3:37:21 GMT -5
It's odd how different people view this cover so differently. I view the cover as a testament to an important moment in Bab's life. Without the killing joke Barbara Gordon would probably not exist at the moment. I view this as a moment that shows even though something terrible happened Barbara managed to overcome it. I don't view Barbara as a victim this cover reminds me she's a survivor.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Mar 16, 2015 5:49:02 GMT -5
It's odd how different people view this cover so differently. I view the cover as a testament to an important moment in Bab's life. Without the killing joke Barbara Gordon would probably not exist at the moment. I view this as a moment that shows even though something terrible happened Barbara managed to overcome it. I don't view Barbara as a victim this cover reminds me she's a survivor. "Batty" (love your handle, by the way!), That this cover gives you that feeling about Barbara Gordon is incredible, and I salute that whole-heartedly! For me, although "The Killing Joke" put Barbara in that horrific situation and left her to its consequences, it was through the good works of John Ostrander, Kim Yale, Chuck Dixon. and Gail Simone who created and crafted the Oracle persona and Barbara's triumphant re-imagining as one of comics' greatest heroines that she survives. At some levels, celebrating her victimization through this image is feeling to me like saying "Well, half our house burned downed and incapacitated our Mom, but at least we got new aluminum siding, right?" I'd be happier with an homage to the Stephane Roux cover to Birds of Prey #124... ...an issue where-in Barbara literally wipes the smile off of the Joker's face, and which features this marvelous exchange:
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Post by lennyreid on Mar 16, 2015 6:00:06 GMT -5
Very pleased to see such a varied and respectful conversation about this on here.
Good job, people.
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Post by rgsc on Mar 16, 2015 6:58:00 GMT -5
I love Rafael Albuquerque's art - he is one of the best artists in the industry - and he brings an absolutely gutwrenching feel of horror to this cover...which is so absolutely ill advised my jaw dropped when I first saw it. He CAN do Batgirl well. Just look at the AMAZING Endgame tie-in cover that has been advertised in all the DC titles last month. There, Batgirl is tough, defiant, and definitely about to kick ass. In other words, the hero that she is.
Here, she is not only the victim but is being re-victimized.
The Killing Joke is not a Batgirl story (Babs had hung up the cowl) yet it has become for many the defining Batgirl story. Barbara Gordon's treatment was essentially a throw-away moment for Moore (who later said he regretted the treatment), just one more thing to try to drive Commissioner Gordon over the edge.
You can play on that legacy, as the recent Harley Quinn variant did with Barbara holding the camera, and as it is cannon it should be acknowledged as it allowed for the remarkable rehabilitation on the character through Suicide Squad and then BoP, and, in the New52, the recovery has been key to the development of Barbara Gordon. In varying degrees, it has played a part of Death of the Family, in Gail Simone's run on Batgril, and with Joker's Daughter in Eternal, and the current run's authors have addressed it in the recent Secret Origins (however, with some subtle, but important modifications). In these stories, however, it is used to show Barbara's strength, determination, and heroism in the face of the horror she suffered.
BattyforDC sees in the cover the moment Barbara overcomes the trauma. In no way do I get any sense of that here. She is not shown as a survivor here, she is shown as absolutely terrified. To get that sense, you need the moment that comes just a bit later when she turns the tables on the Joker and stands triumphantly over him.
It is a stunning piece of art, a beautiful, horrible, affecting piece. It should not appear on the cover of a Batgirl book, let alone one in which they have actively moved the tone away from the grimdark that is epitomized by TKJ and which carried on through the first nu52 Batgirl run.
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Post by lennyreid on Mar 16, 2015 8:44:59 GMT -5
It is a stunning piece of art, a beautiful, horrible, affecting piece. It should not appear on the cover of a Batgirl book, let alone one in which they have actively moved the tone away from the grimdark that is epitomized by TKJ and which carried on through the first nu52 Batgirl run. 100% This. I hate to trim from an articulate and well-put larger piece from rgsc but this closing statement sums it up for me. Wonderful art from Mr Albuquerque and the reason he is the first choice for Horror, but horribly misjudged at this time given the affection for the character in the community. Amazing to see that a fictional character's plight can stir-up these emotions when you think about it. A perfect storm of artist nailing-it, an affecting long-running character arch shaped by a lot of hands, gender equality in comics at the forefront at this time, and a company moving in the right direction but still able to fall on its face.
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Post by pacino on Mar 16, 2015 10:03:36 GMT -5
seeing the varied discussion about the piece here and at the bleedingcool forums is why I've switched from there to here. I attempted to portray the viewpoint that it was ill-fitting and was shouted down as PC and the equivalent of Wertham. Rich himself didn't like the cover but the posters that have gathered there seem angry a lot.
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Post by CaptainSuperior on Mar 16, 2015 20:30:08 GMT -5
Looks like the cover has now been canceled, this feels dirty. I almost dare to say it feels a little like artistic censorship. My personal feelings on the recent news.
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Post by pacino on Mar 16, 2015 20:33:17 GMT -5
In what way is it censorship? A corporation made a decision. Rafael still got paid. I feel far dirtier knowing how it made people feel.
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Post by CaptainSuperior on Mar 16, 2015 20:38:32 GMT -5
Rafael gave his personal feelings about the original work which were entirely valid. I'm not saying that people don't have valid points about the subject matter itself, but the cover wasn't made out of malice or ill will. I feel that this situation could've been resolved in a different way.
"My Batgirl variant cover artwork was designed to pay homage to a comic that I really admire, and I know is a favorite of many readers. 'The Killing Joke' is part of Batgirl’s canon and artistically, I couldn't avoid portraying the traumatic relationship between Barbara Gordon and the Joker. For me, it was just a creepy cover that brought up something from the character’s past that I was able to interpret artistically. But it has become clear, that for others, it touched a very important nerve. I respect these opinions and, despite whether the discussion is right or wrong, no opinion should be discredited.
My intention was never to hurt or upset anyone through my art. For that reason, I have recommended to DC that the variant cover be pulled. I'm incredibly pleased that DC Comics is listening to my concerns and will not be publishing the cover art in June as previously announced.
With all due respect,
Rafa"
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Post by jonathansoko on Mar 16, 2015 20:42:13 GMT -5
I'm not surprised. Look at how they acted about the "trans villain". I'm so disappointed with out society right now.
We now live in a society where it's ok to express oneself. As long as its in alignment with everyone else. Death threats over comics? Humanity is failing right now. If you need me, I'll be on the next rocket to mars.
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Post by pacino on Mar 16, 2015 20:49:59 GMT -5
Who is 'they'? Why are you lumping a few idiots in with people who disliked the cover being on Batgirl?
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Post by jonathansoko on Mar 16, 2015 20:54:33 GMT -5
They being the exact idiots you mentioned. I'm not lumping together anyone. Except for the idiots who criticized it, but don't even read the book.
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Post by pacino on Mar 16, 2015 20:54:53 GMT -5
Humanity is basically fairer and more decent than it's ever been.
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Post by pacino on Mar 16, 2015 20:55:55 GMT -5
They being the exact idiots you mentioned. I'm not lumping together anyone. Except for the idiots who criticized it, but don't even read the book. Did Cameron get death threats?
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