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Post by pacino on Mar 17, 2015 18:37:05 GMT -5
You didn't learn anything about other people's disparate views on a piece of art and hoe we don't all bring the same experiences to how we critique said art? Just 'fear the future'??
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Post by megamaramon on Mar 17, 2015 19:34:25 GMT -5
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Post by rgsc on Mar 17, 2015 20:19:50 GMT -5
Very well put. A powerful response to the situation & all the ugliness that has arisen.
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Post by henrythemorerecent on Mar 17, 2015 23:39:29 GMT -5
But is the dress blue?
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Post by sammiecassell on Mar 18, 2015 0:04:28 GMT -5
Ok, I've waited until today to post my thoughts on this. The reason is two fold which I'll break down shortly. First, I want to say how thrilled I am to see this topic discussed in such a fair and empathetic manner on here. I, like everyone else have seen some terrible stuff on Twitter, from both sides. Thank you Talking Comics community. Now, my first reason was so I could talk to my youngest daughter ( she's 22). I call her my new morale compass. She is socially way left of how I was raised, and calls me to task when she thinks I've said something "out of the way". Whether it's gender, race, religion, or anything, if I say something or make a comment that she disagrees with, she calls me out and we discuss it. (I.e., I made an observation to the new generations men dressing "down" for dates while the women are still dressing up. While defending but not justifing it, she proceeds to tell me, "Sammie, you walk around with white goggles on") lol. She is in Atlanta and I am in NC. I sent her the cover with no explanation other than asking her thoughts. She immediately called me. "What's the context?" Me:"This is an alternate cover for the new Batgirl book, there's a controversy about it right now, what's your initial thoughts"? Her: "it looks like the Joker is being a villan"..."and Batgirl is scared for her life" Me:"it's an homage to a classic Batman story called the Killing Joke" Joker attacks her, implied sexual rape, and then severs her spine and puts her in a wheel chair, where she becomes Oracle" Her:"ok, so the Joker is being a villan?" Me:" yea I guess so, but people are saying it romanticized violence against women" Her: "really?, to me I'd be more upset if they didn't show it. If Batman can get out of this and kick the Jokers butt, why can't Batgirl? To me it's patronizing to women if they don't show it. Women are just as strong as men and can kick as much butt as men." " Plus Sammie, it's a comic.....it's not real" Me:"true but sometimes comics can be a reflection of life" Her:"Does she survive?" Me:"I don't think it has anything to do with the story line right now but she normally does" Her:"well that's just stupid, if it doesn't have anything to do with the book, why put it on there?. SMH (shaking my head for you old people lol, which she uses a lot around me). To me it's the Joker being bad.....because he's BAD......" Me:"and that is why I called you" :-)
The second reason, was because today I did another elementary school talk and for the Gifted and Talented group (consisting of 3 girls and 5 boys) and the female teacher, I showed this cover. First I got their initial reaction, which to a kid was "I don't see anything wrong with it". Then I told them what the controversy was. Our conversation following can best be summed up by a 9yr old girl, who said "the Joker is evil, this is what he does" "what makes Batgirl a hero is that she overcomes this in one way, shape or form, and she still kicks butt. Heroes do good, villans do bad, it's that simple Mr. Comic Book man".
I'm probably gonna make somebody mad with this post. I, as with Mr. Alberqurque, do not do this to offend someone. If you were offended by this cover, I am not going to change your mind, nor do I want to. I'm only offering you a different perspective, respectfully, just as you did with me. I do worry about censorship, and if you think that this does not at least fall partly under that umbrella you are being naive. 50 yrs. ago, if Warren had not pushed the envelope with Creepy & etc., we would not have the great books we have today. 30yrs ago, without The Killing Joke, or Dark Knight , etc. we would not have the discussions of violence in books that we have today. 10 yrs, ago, without Alpha Flight, we wouldn't have the freedom of sexuality that we have in books today. Know what these books had in common? Public Outrage towards them at the time. I'm the last person you'll see defending Alan Moore, Im not a fan of him or Frank Miller. But for me to have Nailbiter or Preacher they had to do what they did. You can't erase history because it doesn't jive with what's right in today's society. It made it possible for us to have today's society. Which is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was with more improvements to come. Whose to say this cover isnt the catalyst for the next social change or will it because it's now not available. My TC buddy Huw, pointed out to me today that this cover doesn't belong on a YA title. Which I agree with. I don't read this book so I didn't know it was considered YA. But my old school sensibilities do not understand how it's ok to have a transgender villan in a YA title but this is NOT ok? Hmmmm, sounds like I need to call Morgan again and see what goggles I have on now.
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Post by henrythemorerecent on Mar 18, 2015 1:54:09 GMT -5
Ok, I've waited until today to post my thoughts on this. The reason is two fold which I'll break down shortly. First, I want to say how thrilled I am to see this topic discussed in such a fair and empathetic manner on here. I, like everyone else have seen some terrible stuff on Twitter, from both sides. Thank you Talking Comics community. Now, my first reason was so I could talk to my youngest daughter ( she's 22). I call her my new morale compass. She is socially way left of how I was raised, and calls me to task when she thinks I've said something "out of the way". Whether it's gender, race, religion, or anything, if I say something or make a comment that she disagrees with, she calls me out and we discuss it. (I.e., I made an observation to the new generations men dressing "down" for dates while the women are still dressing up. While defending but not justifing it, she proceeds to tell me, "Sammie, you walk around with white goggles on") lol. She is in Atlanta and I am in NC. I sent her the cover with no explanation other than asking her thoughts. She immediately called me. "What's the context?" Me:"This is an alternate cover for the new Batgirl book, there's a controversy about it right now, what's your initial thoughts"? Her: "it looks like the Joker is being a villan"..."and Batgirl is scared for her life" Me:"it's an homage to a classic Batman story called the Killing Joke" Joker attacks her, implied sexual rape, and then severs her spine and puts her in a wheel chair, where she becomes Oracle" Her:"ok, so the Joker is being a villan?" Me:" yea I guess so, but people are saying it romanticized violence against women" Her: "really?, to me I'd be more upset if they didn't show it. If Batman can get out of this and kick the Jokers butt, why can't Batgirl? To me it's patronizing to women if they don't show it. Women are just as strong as men and can kick as much butt as men." " Plus Sammie, it's a comic.....it's not real" Me:"true but sometimes comics can be a reflection of life" Her:"Does she survive?" Me:"I don't think it has anything to do with the story line right now but she normally does" Her:"well that's just stupid, if it doesn't have anything to do with the book, why put it on there?. SMH (shaking my head for you old people lol, which she uses a lot around me). To me it's the Joker being bad.....because he's BAD......" Me:"and that is why I called you" :-) The second reason, was because today I did another elementary school talk and for the Gifted and Talented group (consisting of 3 girls and 5 boys) and the female teacher, I showed this cover. First I got their initial reaction, which to a kid was "I don't see anything wrong with it". Then I told them what the controversy was. Our conversation following can best be summed up by a 9yr old girl, who said "the Joker is evil, this is what he does" "what makes Batgirl a hero is that she overcomes this in one way, shape or form, and she still kicks butt. Heroes do good, villans do bad, it's that simple Mr. Comic Book man". I'm probably gonna make somebody mad with this post. I, as with Mr. Alberqurque, do not do this to offend someone. If you were offended by this cover, I am not going to change your mind, nor do I want to. I'm only offering you a different perspective, respectfully, just as you did with me. I do worry about censorship, and if you think that this does not at least fall partly under that umbrella you are being naive. 50 yrs. ago, if Warren had not pushed the envelope with Creepy & etc., we would not have the great books we have today. 30yrs ago, without The Killing Joke, or Dark Knight , etc. we would not have the discussions of violence in books that we have today. 10 yrs, ago, without Alpha Flight, we wouldn't have the freedom of sexuality that we have in books today. Know what these books had in common? Public Outrage towards them at the time. I'm the last person you'll see defending Alan Moore, Im not a fan of him or Frank Miller. But for me to have Nailbiter or Preacher they had to do what they did. You can't erase history because it doesn't jive with what's right in today's society. It made it possible for us to have today's society. Which is leaps and bounds ahead of where it was with more improvements to come. Whose to say this cover isnt the catalyst for the next social change or will it because it's now not available. My TC buddy Huw, pointed out to me today that this cover doesn't belong on a YA title. Which I agree with. I don't read this book so I didn't know it was considered YA. But my old school sensibilities do not understand how it's ok to have a transgender villan in a YA title but this is NOT ok? Hmmmm, sounds like I need to call Morgan again and see what goggles I have on now. Really enjoyed reading this experience. It also reminded me specifically about something that was discussed in this exact thread regarding this run onBatgirl. When #35 came out many, including myself, voiced distaste at the things Barbara does in the comic and the lifestyle her and her friends lead. It was then brought to mine and others attention by readers as well as the creative team that this book was NEVER intended to be a YA title. She's a girl in her early 20's going out and partying and hooking up with guys, they never intended to target children with this comic like Gotham Academy was very much made for. And I myself as well as others copped a lot of negativity because of out views on this subject. So it really makes me curious that if Barbara is allowed to do things that clearly only adults would be doing, how is this cover inappropriate for this book.
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Post by rgsc on Mar 18, 2015 5:26:05 GMT -5
Sammie - i am glad you sought out & shared some opinions of people outside the comic fandom. Clearly for these folks, presented with the cover without a knowledge of either the current run or the history, save the framing you provided, couldn't see what the big deal is and that is cool. It doesn't invalidate the opinions of myself or anyone else but it is nice to get an outsider's take.
I want to briefly address your comment questioning the appropriateness of having a trans* villain. Are you asking if is appropriate to have a CHARACTER who is trans* in YA book? Or a VILLAIN? If the former, then we have a fundamental difference between us about the need for representation at all age groups. If the latter, read back to ca. pg 3 of this thread to see the discussion of how the team handled the crossdressing Dagger Type & the issues raised.
Henry - the class of YA typically is considered (in the library / literature world) to encompass the ages of 16 to 25 [note to add: recent trends do skew that a bit younger, with the addition of the category "new adult" which covers the top end of the range]. Barbara doesn't "hook up" (if you are defining that the way i believe you are) but goes to a party, has a few drinks, & makes out with a boy. (It is clearly spelled out that they didn't sleep together.) A rather common experience for i'd imagine the majority of people who are around the age of 21. Later she goes on dates, shown chastely.
You make it sound like she has been shown hopping in & out of beds throughout the series. And even if that was the case, there isn't anything wrong with it or inappropriate, particularly not for a YA or up readership.
It is a younger audience that is being courted here than typical, but not kids or even pre-teens. It isn't Gotham Academy (although there isn't any reason Olive couldn't be swapped out for Babs in the majority of the situations she has been in during the new run of Batgirl.)
I am curious to know where you got the sense that the creators did not see this as a YA title? Every interview i've seen has them discussing purposefully creating a book that would appeal to a younger audience.
As summarized above, there are several issues with the cover, including its contrast in tone and in the celebration of sexual violence which make it inappropriate for this book no matter what age group it is pitched to but particularly inappropriate given the audience for this run.
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Post by jonathansoko on Mar 18, 2015 6:27:05 GMT -5
Batgirl vs joker mini please! Let's finally see babs kick jokers ass mentally and physically
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Post by Bob Reyer on Mar 18, 2015 6:40:29 GMT -5
Batgirl vs joker mini please! Let's finally see babs kick jokers ass mentally and physically Jonathan, It's not the definitive battle you're requesting, but it's pretty close... Here's a link to a story page that you might enjoy, but that I don't want to spoil more than I probably already have!
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Post by pacino on Mar 18, 2015 6:47:52 GMT -5
Adam Baldwin stated on twitter that he's for saving the cover. So there you go...
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Post by sammiecassell on Mar 18, 2015 7:58:03 GMT -5
Sammie - i am glad you sought out & shared some opinions of people outside the comic fandom. Clearly for these folks, presented with the cover without a knowledge of either the current run or the history, save the framing you provided, couldn't see what the big deal is and that is cool. It doesn't invalidate the opinions of myself or anyone else but it is nice to get an outsider's take. I want to briefly address your comment questioning the appropriateness of having a trans* villain. Are you asking if is appropriate to have a CHARACTER who is trans* in YA book? Or a VILLAIN? If the former, then we have a fundamental difference between us about the need for representation at all age groups. If the latter, read back to ca. pg 3 of this thread to see the discussion of how the team handled the crossdressing Dagger Type & the issues raised. Henry - the class of YA typically is considered (in the library / literature world) to encompass the ages of 16 to 25 [note to add: recent trends do skew that a bit younger, with the addition of the category "new adult" which covers the top end of the range]. Barbara doesn't "hook up" (if you are defining that the way i believe you are) but goes to a party, has a few drinks, & makes out with a boy. (It is clearly spelled out that they didn't sleep together.) A rather common experience for i'd imagine the majority of people who are around the age of 21. Later she goes on dates, shown chastely. You make it sound like she has been shown hopping in & out of beds throughout the series. And even if that was the case, there isn't anything wrong with it or inappropriate, particularly not for a YA or up readership. It is a younger audience that is being courted here than typical, but not kids or even pre-teens. It isn't Gotham Academy (although there isn't any reason Olive couldn't be swapped out for Babs in the majority of the situations she has been in during the new run of Batgirl.) I am curious to know where you got the sense that the creators did not see this as a YA title? Every interview i've seen has them discussing purposefully creating a book that would appeal to a younger audience. As summarized above, there are several issues with the cover, including its contrast in tone and in the celebration of sexual violence which make it inappropriate for this book no matter what age group it is pitched to but particularly inappropriate given the audience for this run. Ahhh ok, then the classification of YA is where my issue is. In my old people thought methods, and by virtue of how they are listed in bookstores, my thought was that YA was targeted at ages 12-18. That is a HUGE difference between 16-25, however I stand by my statement that 16-18 year olds should not be exposed to drinking, partying, making out with a random guy in a bar, cross dressers, any more than they need to. I'm probably being old curmudgeon here. But if you romanticize drinking at a bar can that not lead to the cover? I'm not naive enough to think everybody that goes to a bar and drinks will get taken out and beaten. But don't stats show that some of these violence issues are alcohol related. Is this the kind of stuff that should be aimed at 16-18 yrs old. At what point did we stop trying to protect our children as much as possible, in ANY way possible. Also, my daughter has more than a cursory knowledge of comics. She does not have a direct knowledge of the Killing Joke but she does know Batman, the Joker and a lot of they're story. She saw no issue with the cover other than if it's on a YA book (which we both thought strewed younger). And Pacino, just because Adam Baldwin defended the cover means NOTHING to me. No more than Bono defending..... everybody.....,they're celebrities, if you follow 99% of their leads you're headed down the wrong path anyway. No matter which side of the "political spectrum" they fall on. I'm sure if someone had censored Watchmen all those years ago, Bono would have been the first to jump to his defense....which also means NOTHING to me.
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Post by pacino on Mar 18, 2015 8:06:56 GMT -5
I don't see where cross-dressing is something that kids need to be shielded from.
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Post by rgsc on Mar 18, 2015 8:58:48 GMT -5
Ahhh ok, then the classification of YA is where my issue is. In my old people thought methods, and by virtue of how they are listed in bookstores, my thought was that YA was targeted at ages 12-18. That is a HUGE difference between 16-25, however I stand by my statement that 16-18 year olds should not be exposed to drinking, partying, making out with a random guy in a bar, cross dressers, any more than they need to. I'm probably being old curmudgeon here. But if you romanticize drinking at a bar can that not lead to the cover? I'm not naive enough to think everybody that goes to a bar and drinks will get taken out and beaten. But don't stats show that some of these violence issues are alcohol related. Is this the kind of stuff that should be aimed at 16-18 yrs old. At what point did we stop trying to protect our children as much as possible, in ANY way possible. [...] I am trying to think of an appropriate response to this post and may keep it brief for the moment, perhaps returning to it, perhaps not. It seems we do, indeed, have a very different world view and that colours our understanding of literature, life, etc. and this thread may be straying rather far from the topic at hand. Let me tell you, I am REALLY looking forward to reading the two(!) Batgirl issues out today and talking about them. As to your first part - "16-18 year olds should not be exposed to drinking, partying, making out with a random guy in a bar, cross dressers, any more than they need to." I am curious about the kicker to this sentence - exactly what you mean by "any more than they need to." I find that qualifier bemusing. However, this perhaps falls into personal morality and yours is absolutely an entirely valid stance. One I disagree with, but there you go. Certainly issues of sociability and sexuality and all the thrills and perils faced by teens has been explored in YA lit since, oh, say, The Outsiders, if not before. I recall you saying you aren't currently reading the current series but, if you did, you would see that there isn't a glorification of the drinking etc but there are ramifications for Barbara Gordon. Personally, I think BG deserves to have some consequence-free fun, however she chooses it (or, rather, how the writers decide the character should choose it), because after the 3 years she's had, heaven knows she deserves it. But, to start, it does not romanticize this, which leads to the next section. The second part, however, is what compels me to respond at the moment. The part beginning with "But if you romanticize drinking at a bar can that not lead to the cover?" ABSOLUTELY NOT. This victim blaming which I cannot let lie. If you are suggesting that women being sexually or otherwise assaulted because they decide to go to a bar and/or imbibe in alcohol should mean we need to 'protect' our children from the dangers of booze then ... well I am not sure how to proceed civilly here. Women are assaulted because men assault them. Not because they have a drink or dress in skimpy clothes or anything else. Before I end off, I'll bring this back around to the cover. One of the objections to the variant cover is that it aestheticizes the sexual violence perpetuated against Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke. I said it myself -it is a beautiful piece of art. If we are to protect our children, girls and more importantly boys as well as men & women, from anything ("won't somebody think of the children?!?") it should be from the depictions of violence against women that glorify and celebrate it.
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Post by Simon on Mar 18, 2015 9:12:01 GMT -5
Batgirl vs joker mini please! Let's finally see babs kick jokers ass mentally and physically Jonathan, It's not the definitive battle you're requesting, but it's pretty close... Here's a link to a story page that you might enjoy, but that I don't want to spoil more than I probably already have! Tony Bedard's run on Birds of Prey is criminally underrated and undershadowed.
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matt
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 75
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Post by matt on Mar 18, 2015 10:08:16 GMT -5
I don't see where cross-dressing is something that kids need to be shielded from. They don't, my girl friends little brother who is 14 once told me some very mean thoughts he had on trans people. Introducing trans/cross-dressing characters into works of fiction that kids read/watch might stop kids in the future from have the same thoughts as my girl friends little brother.
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