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Post by Huw on Jul 2, 2014 16:13:04 GMT -5
Issue #140: Wonder Woman, Feminism, and Why Comics Will EndurePodcast StreamDownload Directly From iTunesFeedburner LinkBob and Bobby are a two man band this week as Steve and Stephanie observe something called “Canada Day.” The two B’s discuss the heartbreaking World Cup, the place of feminism in Wonder Woman, and why the comic media will continue to endure. Lightning Round books include: Batman #32, Justice League #31, Haunter, Fantastic Four #6, New Avengers, Ghost, and Savage Hulk #1.  Books of the Week include: New Avengers Annual #1, Ms. Marvel #5, Superman #32, and Outcast #1. Annnnnnnnnnd… we say it on the show, but just in case you missed it, the Talking Comics crew on Twitter are: Bobby: @bobbyshortle Steve: @dead_anchoress Stephanie: @ hellocookieAnd Bob’s email is bobreyer@talkingcomicbooks.com 
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lumpkin
Fearless Defender
Posts: 32 
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Post by lumpkin on Jul 3, 2014 15:02:37 GMT -5
well it was great hearing you two discuss the WW issue\ debate ( also all women ) . I agree with your thoughts but I have to comment that "ART" is always a hot topic for debate. Music, poetry, theater plays , paintings , I could go on and on. all have these problems. If an artist has a vision ( even one we disagree with ) how do we maintain expression without blasting it ? If the artiest can explain his \ her intention what then ? Thanks as always, and I'm sorry the two SS were out for this debate..
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 3, 2014 17:17:30 GMT -5
well it was great hearing you two discuss the WW issue\ debate ( also all women ) . I agree with your thoughts but I have to comment that "ART" is always a hot topic for debate. Music, poetry, theater plays , paintings , I could go on and on. all have these problems. If an artist has a vision ( even one we disagree with ) how do we maintain expression without blasting it ? If the artiest can explain his \ her intention what then ? Thanks as always, and I'm sorry the two SS were out for this debate.. Don, I'm very glad that you enjoyed our chat on the new creative direction for Wonder Woman, and I missed Stephanie's and Steve's input, too! As I'm sure that you know at this late date how passionate I am about the Amazon Princess, her place in the comics pantheon, and her proper and respectful portrayal. With regards to artistic style, it is of course very subjective, and I always fall back on the French expression "There is no discussion in taste or color"; where I tend to part company with that is when those stylistic choices drift into female objectification, which to me is a flash-point. I'm fine with old-fashioned glamour illustration on the order of George Petty, or the "Good Girl Art" of Matt Baker and Dave Stevens, but as you've heard on the air, I'm not happy with broke-back "Escher Girls" of the sort displayed in the promo art by Mr. Finch, and for me at least, once you cross that bridge from "alluring glamour girl" to "hyper-sexualized pin-up", we're into something that is simply demeaning, and from a business standpoint, potentially hurtful to growing a more diverse audience As you rightly point out, it is about vision, and how we each respond to an artist, so I try to avoid labeling something as "bad", preferring to go with "inappropriate" (if I've slipped I apologize!), but I do feel that there needs to be responsibility to a greater good, as current Wonder Woman artist Cliff Chiang said at a panel at WonderCon regarding this issue: “I try to make sure agency isn’t taken away from her… I want her to be powerful on these covers.”He continued discussing the responsibility of the artist in response to an audience question: “It’s not like when I’m drawing [that] my hand slips and suddenly it’s sexy.These are conscious decisions someone is making, and there are many of them. It doesn’t accidentally happen. As creators, it’s important for us to reign that in.”As always Don, it's great to be able to have these discussions--thanks for checking in!
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Post by WiccanBeyond on Jul 4, 2014 2:00:37 GMT -5
I listened to this episode at work today and I wanted to say that I really enjoyed the conversation about Wonder Woman, the Fitches and the broader feminism topic it brought about. You both were very thoughtful in your responses and I was quoting Bobby's Hobby Lobby comment to everyone who would listen.
Wonder Woman is one of my favorite characters in comics and I've always imagined when it comes to the Trinity, Superman represents Idealism, Batman is Justice and Wonder Woman is Outsider/Critic/Peaceful Warrior. Wonder Woman comes into our society that has been shaped by deep rooted bigotries, prejudices and perpetual violence (particularly towards women, children and animals (she can talk to animals, right?))and she's the one pointing to all the cracks in our culture landscape. While Superman and Batman are products of this culture and its system, it's completely foreign to Diana and her people (I am thinking of the Amazons in their Pre-Flashpoint context and not their current status quo). But that's just my take on the character.
I also wanted to comment that I really enjoyed it being just Bob and Bobby. This is in no way to suggest that it was better, but that the podcast had a very conversational feel as opposed to the round table format. I found it more intimate and it was equally enjoyable for its own reasons. I also felt that way when it was just Steve and Mr. Rob Neumeyer on Talking Games. All that said though, I look forward for the return of Steve and Stephanie.
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Post by rcbtaw on Jul 4, 2014 7:43:50 GMT -5
I really enjoyed Finch's run on Batman The Dark Knight. The Scarecrow arc is one that I hold in high regard. That being said, Mr. Finch seems like a man of extremes. Huge muscled up heroes or women portrayed with the over-sexual used look. I have bought three years of New 52 WW, and I will buy The Finch's WW to give it a chance just as I did Azerello's and Chiang's. Like Bobby said, it is hard to tell what an entire run will be like from one interview.
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Post by deadanchoress on Jul 4, 2014 8:48:01 GMT -5
I listened to this episode at work today and I wanted to say that I really enjoyed the conversation about Wonder Woman, the Fitches and the broader feminism topic it brought about. You both were very thoughtful in your responses and I was quoting Bobby's Hobby Lobby comment to everyone who would listen. Wonder Woman is one of my favorite characters in comics and I've always imagined when it comes to the Trinity, Superman represents Idealism, Batman is Justice and Wonder Woman is Outsider/Critic/Peaceful Warrior. Wonder Woman comes into our society that has been shaped by deep rooted bigotries, prejudices and perpetual violence (particularly towards women, children and animals (she can talk to animals, right?))and she's the one pointing to all the cracks in our culture landscape. While Superman and Batman are products of this culture and its system, it's completely foreign to Diana and her people (I am thinking of the Amazons in their Pre-Flashpoint context and not their current status quo). But that's just my take on the character. I also wanted to comment that I really enjoyed it being just Bob and Bobby. This is in no way to suggest that it was better, but that the podcast had a very conversational feel as opposed to the roundtable fill and I found it more intimate and it was equally enjoyable for its own reasons. I also felt that way when it was just Steve and Mr. Rob Neumeyer on Talking Games. All that said though, I look forward for the return of Steve and Stephanie. Wow! Thank you so much for your kind words. Also, I'm so glad that you enjoyed the minimalist Talking Comics podcast with Rob and I, it's one of my favorite episodes that we've recorded so far. |
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Post by Raider30 on Jul 4, 2014 11:36:56 GMT -5
Good 4th of July morning to you all,
As always I enjoyed the podcast though in this case there was one moment where I really got sidetracked by commentary. While I love a debate and differing opinions on various comic related topics, it was completely off-putting to hear a commentary on the 'horrible week women had due to the recent supreme court ruling', regardless of whether or not I agree or disagree with the ruling or the commentary, it left me in a very wtf(?) mindset. Which continued to the doom and gloom segment on the new Wonder Woman writer/artist team.
By and large this podcast and these forums have stayed away from the third rail of politics, religion, etc., and as a fan of this podcast and these forums I strongly encourage you to continue to avoid these poison pill issues. Delving into this stuff will only bring out the worst in people and lead to negativity, harsh words, and hard feelings. I really do not want to see this place go down that road.
That being said I find the whole debate/discussion on women represented in comics an interesting one. While I completely understand where Bob is coming from regarding the portrayal of female superheroes I also sometimes think people take the argument too far without just cause(and I'm not just referring to Bob here, just in general). For instance there was talk on the podcast about why he didn't just use the word "feminism". Personally I could care less what word he used. Honestly, if I were an artist/actor/politician/etc. and someone were to ask me a question I think I would be very cautious about answering it at all. Anything said will get over analyzed and twisted to meet someone else's need. Having a concern about the artwork based on an artist's previous designs is, to me, a valid issue to raise. Having a concern about the artwork because the artist didn't use the word "feminism" to describe a character is not. I wish the companies wouldn't announce the creators until the first issue was on the stands so people could judge a book on it's merits rather than have months of time to weep and gnash their teeth over what might be.
I would prefer that companies NOT tout how inclusive they are trying to be. I don't need DC going on and on about how the latest Green Lantern will be the first ever Muslim Arab-American superhero, or Marvel's touting the same for the new Ms. Marvel. I don't need the companies to press release who their latest gay character is going to be. It smacks of pandering. Stop trying to prove the world how inclusive you can be and just BE inclusive. Please don't misunderstand me, I have zero problem with minority characters in books, what I want is for them to be released naturally to the public. It's a turn off for me to hear a book being promoted because of a minority status character, but it's a real pleasure to discover that character through a natural reading of the book itself. As an example, Batgirl's current roommate is transgender. While I know DC did the usual press release dog and pony show, *I* didn't see that because I wasn't reading the book at the time(I had to go back and collect the issues because I jumped into the title late). So when I read the particular book where she 'comes out' to Barbara it was a natural(and frankly very well done) part of the story. It felt like it 'fit', as opposed to feeling like it was shoe horned in. Make sense?
As for the drawing of female characters, well I happen to like my female characters sexy - not sexist. I like the 'ideal' form of the female superhero, with a nicely shaped body, hair, face, etc. What I don't like, and I would assume most of you would agree with, is the over-the-top body style that, generally speaking, doesn't exist in nature, sexist posing and certain aspects of the costumes they are drawn into.
Thoughts, questions, comments, concerns?
- Beau
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 4, 2014 14:43:51 GMT -5
Beau,
We have tried in the past and will continue in the future to stay focused on comics, but at times larger societal issues sneak their way in due to a confluence of events. We attempt to only tackle those things that have a direct effect on the comics or films, and even then, most of these "hot button" topics are broached due to listener questions.
As I believe I said on-air, my major concern over the new Wonder Woman creative team of Meredith & David Finch is that whilst claiming to want to attract more female readers, DC hires a penciller with an art style that's polarizing for those of us who follow these things closely. As many have pointed out, the books haven't come out yet, so perhaps the story can "redeem" the art, but for me personally, I'm not sure how, considering that I dropped Worlds' Finest due to objectifying artwork despite Paul Levitz's wonderfully-written stories and great characterizations.
My other concern of note is what seems the corporate disregard at DC for Wonder Woman's place in their history, as well as the possibility of trying to recapture the readers disaffected by the changes to her character since the re-launch, particularly of late. Ms. Finch could turn out to be "The" Wonder Woman writer, but I would bet dollars-to-doughnuts that DC wouldn't assign a writer with a similar resume to write a new Batman book, hence my feeling that they are selling Diana short on that front as well.
As to "the word that must not be spoken", the Finches sounded as if they were going over what was probably a DC "talking point", so it would be fairly easy to grant them a Mulligan, if only his apologies weren't so ham-fisted, too. I'd venture a guess that their "handlers" didn't want them to use the word "feminist" because of a possible negative reaction among their overwhelmingly male readership. To me here, the problem is that due to some political commentators, "feminism" now tracks badly to many people as a buzz-word symbolizing the hatred of men and a radical political agenda seeking to overturn society's mores, a perception made worse through the usage of the vile term "femi-nazi", a phrase that seems a leap in logic (as well as decency!) as when throughout our history, what feminists have sought is merely equal treatment.
For me, there are three super-heroes who have come to represent greater ideals than simply stopping that month's super-villain: Superman, Captain America, and Wonder Woman. Over the past few months, Cap's profile has risen due to feature films that took his core values to heart; wouldn't it be a fine thing if with the Amazon Princess' 75th anniversary approaching, DC Comics published a mainstream title that took a similar tack with the super-heroine created to be an aspirational figure designed to show that women were the equals of men, and that compassion and love should guide our way?
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Post by WiccanBeyond on Jul 4, 2014 15:30:21 GMT -5
I too can appreciate the concern over conversations verging into areas of politics and religion and it's true that sometimes discussions of those topics can bring out the ugliness in people, but I just don't think life is that cut and dry, where we can segment a conversation about comics and say politics has nothing to do with them. I wholeheartedly disagree. All comics, all literature, all art and in our case, American superhero comics are a product of the culture that they come from. And to be fair, genre fiction (fantasy/sci-fi) has always been a forum for which complex social/political ideas were meditated on.
And particularly with regards to Wonder Woman, you cannot have a holistic conversation about her without it having a commentary on society, religion and politics. I share the concern that these conversations can be sensitive, but I think we need to have them.
I agree with Bob's insight into how DC has and continues to treat the character. Even Brian Azzarello, whose run a lot of people seem to be enjoying said in an earlier interview that Wonder Woman herself wasn't that interesting to him, but surrounding her in a new setting and new characters was interesting. I will have to look up the interview when I get home.
And like I said above, Bobby's comment that the Supreme Court just decided that corporations are more human than women. That was something that needed to be said and it did fit, for me at least, with the broader discussion about Wonder Woman.
I can't wait for the uncomfortable conversation about Superman's undocumented immigrant status and the fact that at some point the Kents had to falsify some paperwork to get their boy into school.
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Post by sammiecassell on Jul 4, 2014 15:44:20 GMT -5
Good 4th of July morning to you all, As always I enjoyed the podcast though in this case there was one moment where I really got sidetracked by commentary. While I love a debate and differing opinions on various comic related topics, it was completely off-putting to hear a commentary on the 'horrible week women had due to the recent supreme court ruling', regardless of whether or not I agree or disagree with the ruling or the commentary, it left me in a very wtf(?) mindset. Which continued to the doom and gloom segment on the new Wonder Woman writer/artist team. By and large this podcast and these forums have stayed away from the third rail of politics, religion, etc., and as a fan of this podcast and these forums I strongly encourage you to continue to avoid these poison pill issues. Delving into this stuff will only bring out the worst in people and lead to negativity, harsh words, and hard feelings. I really do not want to see this place go down that road. That being said I find the whole debate/discussion on women represented in comics an interesting one. While I completely understand where Bob is coming from regarding the portrayal of female superheroes I also sometimes think people take the argument too far without just cause(and I'm not just referring to Bob here, just in general). For instance there was talk on the podcast about why he didn't just use the word "feminism". Personally I could care less what word he used. Honestly, if I were an artist/actor/politician/etc. and someone were to ask me a question I think I would be very cautious about answering it at all. Anything said will get over analyzed and twisted to meet someone else's need. Having a concern about the artwork based on an artist's previous designs is, to me, a valid issue to raise. Having a concern about the artwork because the artist didn't use the word "feminism" to describe a character is not. I wish the companies wouldn't announce the creators until the first issue was on the stands so people could judge a book on it's merits rather than have months of time to weep and gnash their teeth over what might be. I would prefer that companies NOT tout how inclusive they are trying to be. I don't need DC going on and on about how the latest Green Lantern will be the first ever Muslim Arab-American superhero, or Marvel's touting the same for the new Ms. Marvel. I don't need the companies to press release who their latest gay character is going to be. It smacks of pandering. Stop trying to prove the world how inclusive you can be and just BE inclusive. Please don't misunderstand me, I have zero problem with minority characters in books, what I want is for them to be released naturally to the public. It's a turn off for me to hear a book being promoted because of a minority status character, but it's a real pleasure to discover that character through a natural reading of the book itself. As an example, Batgirl's current roommate is transgender. While I know DC did the usual press release dog and pony show, *I* didn't see that because I wasn't reading the book at the time(I had to go back and collect the issues because I jumped into the title late). So when I read the particular book where she 'comes out' to Barbara it was a natural(and frankly very well done) part of the story. It felt like it 'fit', as opposed to feeling like it was shoe horned in. Make sense? As for the drawing of female characters, well I happen to like my female characters sexy - not sexist. I like the 'ideal' form of the female superhero, with a nicely shaped body, hair, face, etc. What I don't like, and I would assume most of you would agree with, is the over-the-top body style that, generally speaking, doesn't exist in nature, sexist posing and certain aspects of the costumes they are drawn into. Thoughts, questions, comments, concerns? - Beau Wow, I have been trying to gather my thoughts on how to post something very similar to this. You did it better than I'm sure I could have. While I don't mind occasional forays into politics, religion, & other "controversial" subjects, I do not want the vileness and hostility of these subjects to put a dark cloud over this forum or the podcast. However I also want to applaud Bobby for occasionly being the voice of reason and not letting things get too negative. The negativity towards a book that has not even come out (not just this one) or maybe even written, bothers me at times. Just because it's not "classic", or "independant", or written by a "favorite" doesn't mean it can't be good. Just because it's an "event" book doesn't mean it's terrible. Yes there is some badly written or drawn stuff out there, but as I've said before, art is in personal taste. Booby's, Bob's, Stephanie's, and Steve's opinions are just that, opinions. I've tried some stuff they've talked about and liked it (Rachel Rising, Saga, etc), I've tried some stuff that they loved that I didn't like (Masks). I like some books they don't (Brian Wood's X-Men), & vice-versa. I like a little more "action" in my super-hero books, and I don't have to have coffee discussions or humor or crying in every book. Every issue of a book can neither be or has to be "perfect". I like Garth Ennis, and I like Steve Dillon, I like some of Greg Lands stuff, I'm not a big Bachalo fan, nor do I think everything Kelly Sue does is awesome. But those are MY opinions, and are neither wrong nor right except to me. And yes, I like my women sexy but not sexist too. Does that make me bad? I hope not. To me, as a child of the 70s, I've seen improvement by leaps and bounds in civil rights, feminism, gender equity, and sexual freedom. There is still a long way to go, but we have come very far in a short amount of time. However, the best way to bring out the worst in people is to constantly try to shove something down their throat. I love comics, I love to read, I like most of the people who I've come into contact through comics. I hope they will let us agree to disagree on certain subjects and not look down on me because of my views just as I will give them the same courtesy. Discussion (in a calm way) is the best way to progress, but beware extremist on both sides. It will bring out the dark in everyone. And as my grandmother would always say, "opinions are like buttholes, everybody has got one and most of them stink"  |
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Post by angelus104 on Jul 4, 2014 21:20:09 GMT -5
Wow. Awesome discussion guys. Sammie you said something that couldn't be more true. What we bring is our opinions and nothing more. We hope they are educated and measured ones, but they are opinions none the less.
There is never a moment in any of this where my goal was to impose my will on those who listen. You guys disagreeing in an intelligent and passionate way is all I could have ever hoped for.
Our voices are louder because we speak into microphones but that doesn't make them more right. I started this whole thing because I didn't like the tone of a lot of the conversations I heard out there on the Internet and I wanted to create something where a more reasoned and empathetic approach was taken. It makes my heart feel glad to see such healthy debate coming out of it.
If you guys disagree about the future of this book please write in and tell us why you think it will be good. Those views will be read on air.
Lastly, to address the political aspect. My opinion two fold.
1. Civil rights issues aren't political. They are made out that way to divide us on a simple truth. The world would be infinitely better if we were better to one another. Gay rights, women's rights etc. are fundamental principles that need to be constantly harped on because "better" isn't good enough. I don't care if you vote republican, democrat or Jedi. I'm a humanist and any decision that negatively effects another human being for the sake of a corporation infuriates me.
2. On that note comparing the Wonder Woman thing to such a big issue is not cool. Because it cheapens what that issue is. So on that I agree with you.
And on the note of sexy vs. Sexist. I love sexy woman as well. In fact I'm marrying one. But there is a way to be sexy without being exploitative. In my opinion that art is.
However and this is the biggest point. Whatever my views I don't believe I speak for anyone nor do I think the Finches shouldn't get their shot. They could be amazing. And more over I just love we get to have these debates. You guys and gals rule and I can't wait for more of these talks!
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Post by rcbtaw on Jul 4, 2014 21:52:49 GMT -5
Wow. Awesome discussion guys. Sammie you said something that couldn't be more true. What we bring is our opinions and nothing more. We hope they are educated and measured ones, but they are opinions none the less. There is never a moment in any of this where my goal was to impose my will on those who listen. You guys disagreeing in an intelligent and passionate way is all I could have ever hoped for. Our voices are louder because we speak into microphones but that doesn't make them more right. I started this whole thing because I didn't like the tone of a lot of the conversations I heard out there on the Internet and I wanted to create something where a more reasoned and empathetic approach was taken. It makes my heart feel glad to see such healthy debate coming out of it. If you guys disagree about the future of this book please write in and tell us why you think it will be good. Those views will be read on air. Lastly, to address the political aspect. My opinion two fold. 1. Civil rights issues aren't political. They are made out that way to divide us on a simple truth. The world would be infinitely better if we were better to one another. Gay rights, women's rights etc. are fundamental principles that need to be constantly harped on because "better" isn't good enough. I don't care if you vote republican, democrat or Jedi. I'm a humanist and any decision that negatively effects another human being for the sake of a corporation infuriates me. 2. On that note comparing the Wonder Woman thing to such a big issue is not cool. Because it cheapens what that issue is. So on that I agree with you. And on the note of sexy vs. Sexist. I love sexy woman as well. In fact I'm marrying one. But there is a way to be sexy without being exploitative. In my opinion that art is. However and this is the biggest point. Whatever my views I don't believe I speak for anyone nor do I think the Finches shouldn't get their shot. They could be amazing. And more over I just love we get to have these debates. You guys and gals rule and I can't wait for more of these talks! Check out Black Widow and Velvet for "sexy" without "sexist". Great statement Bobby. |
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Post by sammiecassell on Jul 4, 2014 22:20:52 GMT -5
Wow. Awesome discussion guys. Sammie you said something that couldn't be more true. What we bring is our opinions and nothing more. We hope they are educated and measured ones, but they are opinions none the less. There is never a moment in any of this where my goal was to impose my will on those who listen. You guys disagreeing in an intelligent and passionate way is all I could have ever hoped for. Our voices are louder because we speak into microphones but that doesn't make them more right. I started this whole thing because I didn't like the tone of a lot of the conversations I heard out there on the Internet and I wanted to create something where a more reasoned and empathetic approach was taken. It makes my heart feel glad to see such healthy debate coming out of it. If you guys disagree about the future of this book please write in and tell us why you think it will be good. Those views will be read on air. Lastly, to address the political aspect. My opinion two fold. 1. Civil rights issues aren't political. They are made out that way to divide us on a simple truth. The world would be infinitely better if we were better to one another. Gay rights, women's rights etc. are fundamental principles that need to be constantly harped on because "better" isn't good enough. I don't care if you vote republican, democrat or Jedi. I'm a humanist and any decision that negatively effects another human being for the sake of a corporation infuriates me. 2. On that note comparing the Wonder Woman thing to such a big issue is not cool. Because it cheapens what that issue is. So on that I agree with you. And on the note of sexy vs. Sexist. I love sexy woman as well. In fact I'm marrying one. But there is a way to be sexy without being exploitative. In my opinion that art is. However and this is the biggest point. Whatever my views I don't believe I speak for anyone nor do I think the Finches shouldn't get their shot. They could be amazing. And more over I just love we get to have these debates. You guys and gals rule and I can't wait for more of these talks! Education comes from discussion, my youngest daughter went to a Quaker college and she & I have had some wonderful discussions about all the "hot topics". I'm southern and Presbyterian, my wife is northern & catholic, I have one daughter who is gay, one who has had numerous interracial relationships, her circle of best friends are a gay black male, a Pakastani female, an Trinadadian male, & a white female from a strict southern baptist family. Every day is an educational discussion around here about ALL those topics lol, again Bobby, thanks to all of you for giving us a forum and an outlet to discuss. |
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Post by Leonard on Jul 10, 2014 17:43:36 GMT -5
There is so much disinformation going on here it is shamefull. If you are not informed about things like Sipreme Court rulings then you should not make such damning comments. No one, not one woman has lost any single right. Every type of contraceptive that was available is still available. This ruling only reaffirms the rights of businesses to not be forced to provide things that they consider to be against the religion. If that were truly an issue with any man or woman then they should find work elsewhere. I would hope that if you did not want your employer involved in your contraceptive decisions then you wouldn't expect them to pay for them.
And by the way Hobby Lobby still provides insurance that covers many different forms of contraceptives. Just not ones that they consider equivalent to an abortion. Hardly a blow with women's rights and it's shameful that such comparisons are made.
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