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Post by rgsc on Apr 11, 2014 8:43:58 GMT -5
With $3.99 comics increasingly becoming the new normal, and ads running rampant in print copies, I'd like to talk a bit at value for money and factors that impact the decision to buy (physically, digitally, other) or not. This discussion started over in the Captain Marvel thread but as it was getting rather off topic I thought it best to start a new thread here. For background, here's how Tony started the topic ( talkingcomics.freeforums.net/post/7426/thread ); I replied ( talkingcomics.freeforums.net/post/7447/thread ) ; Tony responded ( talkingcomics.freeforums.net/post/7465/thread) and Pacino offered a rejoinder ( talkingcomics.freeforums.net/post/7470/thread) which is where I am going to pick things up: Honestly, if you're not collecting, how the comic feels should be of no concern to you. The length is the same, give or take two pages. I guess I just don't see it. You can't be a reader and then complain about collecting aspects of the physical book. I absolutely can be a reader and complain about the physical book if I am potentially buying the physical books. What we have been discussing is how factors including price, page length, and the material properties of the comic influence whether or not we are going to buy it and in what format. To be clear, when I said that there were certain books that "I am not at all concerned with collecting these issues, I just want to read them." I meant in the sense that I don't care if I have them all physically. I am not looking necessarily to buy and keep the full run or every issue featuring a particular character (which I do for some). I more concerned with the story and, in that regard, how the comic "feels" is of absolute concern for me and will govern how I read it - physically, digitally, on Marvel Unlimited, in trade, or get it from my public library. This decision will impact the publisher's (& my LCS's) bottom line. If I am going to shell out an ever increasing cover price for a physical object, I need to FEEL that I am getting value for money. If it feels small in my hand in the shop and has a $4 cover price, I might hesitate to buy it. If it has crappy paper stock (Marvel books, particularly Black Widow #1, uses poor quality paper/ink which rubs off & bleeds in my hands) or if the previous issue was an extremely quick read that left me less then satisfied, then I am going to really think about how I spend my money next month. I am willing to "give or take two pages" but when you drop an 8 pg backup story and keep the cover price the same, I am going to be irked. If, however, you have fewer (or even better placed) ads, if the story in previous issues is satisfactory, if the product in my hand appears to be of a good quality, then I am going to be much more eager to pick it up. If not then I will look elsewhere or take a pass entirely and then they've left money on the table. Tony put it quite nicely: [...] Ultimately i suppose my gripe is that, hey, Marvel, or DC (with $4 Batman, specifically), they should be trying their best to make sure i have a good experience enjoying their product. Take care of your customers, that's business 101. They should be making it easy for me to grab those books from the shelf, throw them on the counter without a second thought, and walk out of the store with them. And with a $4 book that feels really short and constantly interrupted by commercials, they're not doing that. That gives me all kinds of second thoughts. They're making it a hard decision for me, instead of making it an easy one. And in that sense, they are failing me, the customer, and they're failing the shops who want to move those books, and they're failing the artists and creative people who've put their heart and soul into that work. [...] There are too many options - both on the physical comic stands and elsewhere - vying for my money for them not to make it an easy decision. Griping about the prices of things is not new - not even new to comics (think of the relatively recent DC slogan "Hold the line at $2.99"). People probably were up in arms when the cover price went from 10cents to 12cents in 1962. Of course we will still buy books but we might by less and be more cautious about taking a chance on a new title. The economics of it from the publisher's point of view makes absolute sense as they've been testing the waters to see what they can get away with in terms of increased cover price. If they can give us the same (or less) for more money, then they are laughing and will push that as far as the market will bear. But this doesn't treat the fans very well and will ultimately have an impact on building a loyal, longterm audience. I guess to open up the discussion, I'll ask the group: What makes you hesitate picking up a book? Do you buy less when you get higher-priced books? Do you pay little attention to the price and just walk out with whatever you intended to regardless of the price? Does additional content, digital editions, better cover/paper stock influence how you view a $4 comic? Do increasing cover prices & ad content in physical comics make you more inclined to buy digitally? |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 11, 2014 9:51:27 GMT -5
As a reader whose history does go back to 10-cent comics, I certainly experience sticker shock when I pick up my pull list these days! I went on a long (and supposedly humourous!) rant in print some while ago ( Prepare to shudder in terror at..."The Hideous rise of...comic book prices!" ), and one point there that I meant to be taken seriously was that with today's story-telling modes, you spend only a brief amount of time actually reading today's comics relative to their cheaper counterparts of the Bronze or Silver Ages. (We received an e-mail from a listener who works in cost analysis who called my logic about the price increase into question, stating that comics aren't as high as they could be, and I'm sure that he was right, but when you factor in the "cost per minute", to me it soars off the chart!) I can't speak to the internal policies or decisions regarding Image's price points, but might it have something to do with the majority of those books being creator-owned, and therefore without payment to creators except those being tied directly to sales/less production costs? What would be everyone's thoughts on returning to cheaper, less-slick paper stock if it would reduce the cost of the books? Are we so used to the vibrant colors and full-bleed techniques that we can't go back, or would the ability to buy more comics off-set that? |
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Post by CaptainSuperior on Apr 11, 2014 10:24:23 GMT -5
Personally, I have a very different experience with the topics you brought up.
- Personally I really can care less how the ads are laid out in the book. They really don't bother me, I just flip the page and keep going. After I've finished the book I will thumb back through and look at the art and the ads. It just doesn't really factor in at all.
- I've never had any problems with the quality of any of the books I've picked up. I'm use to the old school news paper kind paper stock, so to me the new stuff is just a bonus.
- Price doesn't dictate whether I'll buy a book or not. It all comes down to the story and art. If I feel like your story is shit, and doesn't have a good blend between exposition and art then I'm not gonna buy your book, even if it's $2.99 or even .99. To me it is all about the quality of the overall product that dictates if it is worth the cost. With my approach I find I'm never spending more than $15-$25 a week on new books.
- I prefer Marvels approach that all $3.99 books come with a digital copy, I dont understand how DC trys to justify charging an extra dollar for their digital copies.
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Post by rgsc on Apr 11, 2014 11:37:39 GMT -5
As a reader whose history does go back to 10-cent comics, I certainly experience sticker shock when I pick up my pull list these days! I went on a long (and supposedly humourous!) rant in print some while ago ( Prepare to shudder in terror at..."The Hideous rise of...comic book prices!" ), and one point there that I meant to be taken seriously was that with today's story-telling modes, you spend only a brief amount of time actually reading today's comics relative to their cheaper counterparts of the Bronze or Silver Ages. (We received an e-mail from a listener who works in cost analysis who called my logic about the price increase into question, stating that comics aren't as high as they could be, and I'm sure that he was right, but when you factor in the "cost per minute", to me it soars off the chart!) I can't speak to the internal policies or decisions regarding Image's price points, but might it have something to do with the majority of those books being creator-owned, and therefore without payment to creators except those being tied directly to sales/less production costs? What would be everyone's thoughts on returning to cheaper, less-slick paper stock if it would reduce the cost of the books? Are we so used to the vibrant colors and full-bleed techniques that we can't go back, or would the ability to buy more comics off-set that? Ah, of course this would be a topic you already covered! You make an interesting point about story-telling modes. Personally, I like the less verbose, show-don't-tell style. I am even very fond of the silent panels (and issues!) another forum member recently railed against. It can make for a quick read, though, and the subjective value is impacted by the length of time you spend with a thing. In addition to getting fewer pages per book we are also getting comic pages that don't necessitate a lot of time devoted to read the text. As was mentioned on the podcast, Sandman Overture & Pretty Deadly really reward - if not demand - really intensive engagement. You really can't just skim & flip pages. These are the exceptions in today's marketplace. Despite the fact that a quick read may take as much work on the part of the creators and involve an equal number of people working on the production, marketing, distribution etc. as a longer read, consumers may not take that into account when ascribing value to a work. And, certainly I am all for the artist, colourist, letterer, writer, editors etc. getting their due. What bothers me is the massive jump in price (33%! that is a shade more than just accounting for inflation!) with often seemingly little extra value added. The "Draw the line..." - which Mara & Bobby coincidentally mentioned on this week's Comics & Coffee - ended with Detective (at #8) etc going from ca 24pg to 32 pgs with backups. Now? Same $3.99 price tag but we are back to 22 pages. Value is subjective and very hard to quantify for artistic productions. The time spent per dollar spent calculation oversimplifies things but it will influence how we view the work. The page count and other physical factors are taken into account along with how much we enjoy the story/art. Cover price & intrusiveness of ads aren't the only factors but they need to be accounted for in order for consumers to keep wanting to come back for more. |
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Post by rgsc on Apr 11, 2014 11:51:38 GMT -5
Personally, I have a very different experience with the topics you brought up. - Personally I really can care less how the ads are laid out in the book. They really don't bother me, I just flip the page and keep going. After I've finished the book I will thumb back through and look at the art and the ads. It just doesn't really factor in at all. - I've never had any problems with the quality of any of the books I've picked up. I'm use to the old school news paper kind paper stock, so to me the new stuff is just a bonus. - Price doesn't dictate whether I'll buy a book or not. It all comes down to the story and art. If I feel like your story is shit, and doesn't have a good blend between exposition and art then I'm not gonna buy your book, even if it's $2.99 or even .99. To me it is all about the quality of the overall product that dictates if it is worth the cost. With my approach I find I'm never spending more than $15-$25 a week on new books. - I prefer Marvels approach that all $3.99 books come with a digital copy, I dont understand how DC trys to justify charging an extra dollar for their digital copies. Certainly people read and enjoy the material differently. Typically I can just ignore the adverts or glance at them and move on but there have been a few really glaring instances recently where ads have really broken up the action - either through placement or tone or both - and have taken me out of the story. Perhaps it is the printer Marvel's uses in Canada but I've had real issues with the ink. I've had to change the way I read them - setting the book down on my desk and turning pages rather than simply holding the damn thing in my hand. If I have a chance, I'll add a pic to show you what happens. And don't get me started on the quality (ie severe lack of!) of some of their collected editions. I've had the cover & blocks of text come apart from the spine of 2 different volumes of Runaways on the first read. Shameful. I definitely appreciate your point about quality and purchasing. However, that only works if you've read the book before (or can browse it in the shop prior to purchase, I suppose). It certainly makes me think about checking out new books - where I am not sure if I will like the story etc. - or willing to give something new more than 1 issue to grab me. Even though it does nothing for me, I do like that Marvel has a standard approach with giving digital copies with print purchases. This goes to the adding value. Why anyone would spend $4.99 on the combo editions of DC books is beyond me (if you like them please let me know - I am curious to see how other people read these things). |
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Post by xtjmac510x on Apr 11, 2014 21:12:00 GMT -5
For me, there are a lot of factors that go into whether or not I'll buy a book:
1. Is this a book whose narrative makes me want to come back month after month (or every 2-3 weeks) and continue to find out what happens?
2. Is this a company/artist/writer/colorist/editor I want to give my money to?
3. If it is above the bottom line for comics (2.99), does it come with anything extra to warrant me purchasing this book i.e digital copy, extended page count ect?
If you were to take a look at my current pull list, all the books in it answer yes to all 3 questions. If they didn't, I'd drop them and move on to another book. In terms of paper quality and advertisements I don't have much to say, seeing as how my opinion of them are non-existent. Ads are there and some paper is better than others (IDW makes me swoon). I've never really questioned it as 95% of my books have the same type of paper stock.
One thing I would like to bring up is page to price ratio. Annuals and special issues usually tend to go between $5-6 and have 48-63 pages. Is this fair for the price or not? To bring up a recent example, Deadpool #27 was ~100 pages, had no ads, was printed on really good paper stock and included stories from every major Deadpool writer since the character was invented. It cost $9.99. As a fan of the character, the price seemed justified, especially when you consider most trades average between 136-150 pages and cost $15-20. Annuals/specials on the other hand cost $5-6, include ads and have less content than the aforementioned Deadpool special. I get books like Amazing Spider-Man #700 or #1 being the price they were/are, seeing as how they include a lot of extras, but some annuals/specials don't seem to really justify the page to price ratio. Am I crazy or is this something that others think about?
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Post by Tony on Apr 14, 2014 16:19:56 GMT -5
Well you guys know how i feel 'bout it  |
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Post by Simon on Apr 14, 2014 23:30:41 GMT -5
I would love cheaper physical copies of books. I'm all the way in New Zealand so it's a whole hassle to get monthly books to me, and the local comic store has their prices way jacked up. I went in today just to do some research for this thread. A $4.99 book is now $14.90 (This one was Batman 29, but it was on sale for 10 bucks, SCORE), the 3D villains month stuff are a round $25, the $5.99 books are $17.90, $3.99 books are $11.90, and the $2.99 books are $8.90. And that's not even price gouging at one store, that's about average for the country.
TL;DR - Monthlys are expensive in NZ
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Post by rgsc on Apr 15, 2014 6:21:24 GMT -5
I would love cheaper physical copies of books. I'm all the way in New Zealand so it's a whole hassle to get monthly books to me, and the local comic store has their prices way jacked up. I went in today just to do some research for this thread. A $4.99 book is now $14.90 (This one was Batman 29, but it was on sale for 10 bucks, SCORE), the 3D villains month stuff are a round $25, the $5.99 books are $17.90, $3.99 books are $11.90, and the $2.99 books are $8.90. And that's not even price gouging at one store, that's about average for the country. TL;DR - Monthlys are expensive in NZ Holy cow! That is ridiculous! I am assuming they are not printed in NZ and all have to be imported? I can't imagine too many people are buying monthlies (or how shops stay in business - must sell a lot of other stuff to be able to keep floppies in stock). My complaints seem rather insignificant in comparison. |
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Post by Simon on Apr 15, 2014 9:06:35 GMT -5
I would love cheaper physical copies of books. I'm all the way in New Zealand so it's a whole hassle to get monthly books to me, and the local comic store has their prices way jacked up. I went in today just to do some research for this thread. A $4.99 book is now $14.90 (This one was Batman 29, but it was on sale for 10 bucks, SCORE), the 3D villains month stuff are a round $25, the $5.99 books are $17.90, $3.99 books are $11.90, and the $2.99 books are $8.90. And that's not even price gouging at one store, that's about average for the country. TL;DR - Monthlys are expensive in NZ Holy cow! That is ridiculous! I am assuming they are not printed in NZ and all have to be imported? I can't imagine too many people are buying monthlies (or how shops stay in business - must sell a lot of other stuff to be able to keep floppies in stock). My complaints seem rather insignificant in comparison. Yea, that's the American stuff (The DC, Marvel, Image, Dark Horse etc stuff). Lots of people by monthlies but just follow one or two titles then just buy everything else in trade. The local store down here does a lot of manga volumes and trades as well, and has some statues and figures in there to stay open. The complaints aren't insignificant, most complaints need to be heard by someone, it's just that I have a completely different viewpoint. I'd love to only pay 4 dollars for a book, even with ads. The only local NZ comics I've seen come in OGN form rather than monthlies. |
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Post by dwilliams on Apr 16, 2014 7:55:48 GMT -5
I try not to put too much thought into the subject. I have a weekly pull, so I'll just pay and go. Though recently I was told my total and thought to myself "What the hell did I even just buy?" Comics are important in my house. My wife reads them, I obviously read them, we read them to our daughter, and they're a big part of our entertainment budget overall.
I do agree that the ads seem to be getting out of control. A lot of the Marvel books I read this month even had a message/warning to readers commenting on how ads were oversold (it seemed that they were all oversold to the same book publisher), so there was no room for various letter sections. Yikes, right?! When every other page is an ad, it does seem to kill the flow of a good story.
Sometimes I wonder how the business of monthlies even survives. When you think about it paperback trades (not the fancy hardcovers) make waaaay more sense from a consumer standpoint. They're printed on the same quality paper, there's usually some extra stuff in the back of the book, no ads every other page, and most of the time a trade is cheaper than buying the single issues. But... I can't trade wait. Those bastards know I don't have that kind of self-control.
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mguy1977
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Man of Steel
Posts: 50 
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Post by mguy1977 on Apr 18, 2014 10:52:30 GMT -5
What makes you hesitate picking up a book?
Marvel Double BLEEP shipping.
Do you buy less when you get higher-priced books?
Sigh as my favorite characters (ie Superman & Daredevil) go to $3.99, I'll get those comics BUT I will cut other comics from that publisher to help pay for the comics I want.
Do you pay little attention to the price and just walk out with whatever you intended to regardless of the price?
Well I PREORDER my comics so while getting a discount I have a budget sometimes higher & other times not so much. I get 12 to 16 issues a month. 4 of them being Batman Eternal.
Does additional content, digital editions, better cover/paper stock influence how you view a $4 comic?
I don't give two rat's asses about digital codes or AR. I have a landline phone & a computer that is it so no ipad,no kindle fire, etc.. I want the comic & a letters page/column. The ads I breeze over & move to the story.
Do increasing cover prices & ad content in physical comics make you more inclined to buy digitally?
The only digital comic I buy is the Private Eye because I own the copy (& would support this model over any other). No Comixology/Amazon BS. What if Amazon goes belly up or gets owned by a better corporation & changes the terms on you. Bye bye all the comics you rented (insert the Pac Man dying noise here).
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Post by edthehyena on Apr 21, 2014 12:13:05 GMT -5
I've always been impressed comics are as cheap as they are. The sheer amount of art alone makes me feel like I got a good deal most of the time. At the same time, it's important to the hobby for comics to be cheap. I'm not buying Batman Eternal because I don't want to buy 4 more bat-books right now, and the sheer frequency of special oversized bat over the past year has been frustrating.
I wish I knew what profit margins are like. Assuming the cost of ink, paper, shipping, and employees generally goes up, I also expect price to increase. I want to know that creators are being paid fairly.
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Post by Nick on Apr 26, 2014 0:20:14 GMT -5
I never thought much about ad placement until I read the second printing of Afterlife with Archie #1 after already having read the first print. In the first print, the ads were inserted throughout the book. In the second, all the ads were placed on the back of the book, after the story. It read much better -- the pacing was noticeably improved. You have to remember the creators plan the page and panels for a reason...and ads can throw off the flow of the story and the way they want it consumed.
But personally, I love ads. I love old ads in old comics and new ads in new comics.
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knownothingnerd
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
The last thing most people see.
Posts: 58
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Post by knownothingnerd on Apr 30, 2014 7:27:09 GMT -5
So I'm going to chime in with this because it annoys me. Why are digital copies the same price as print. No paper, printing, and distribution cost. I know there are cost to digital copies, but I highly doubt they are the same. The whole "keep local shops alive" argument doesn't affect me as my local shop is at least an 8 hour plane ride away. We don't even get anything physical or actually "own" anything but we pay the same. However, my iPad has better resolution no matter the paper used on the book  Also, no adds... Maybe that's what we are paying for... |
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Honestly, if you're not collecting, how the comic feels should be of no concern to you. The length is the same, give or take two pages.
[...]
Also, no adds... Maybe that's what we are paying for...