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Post by rgsc on Feb 23, 2014 23:08:43 GMT -5
As Batwoman is perhaps my favourite DC character and there was no thread dedicated to her/her title, I thought I'd get one going.
Any thoughts on the first few issues of the Andreyko/Haun run?
I like Marc Andreyko (from Manhunter) and went into this with as much of an open mind as possible after the unfortunate departure of Williams/Blackman et al. I miss that art but love how Haun draws Kate Kane and I am enjoying the story so far, despite the fact that it seems less weighty than before.
Are people reading this?
Did you drop off because of DC Editorial?
Exactly how much ass does Batwoman kick (correct answer: all of it)
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Post by Bob Reyer on Feb 24, 2014 10:24:18 GMT -5
As Batwoman is perhaps my favourite DC character and there was no thread dedicated to her/her title, I thought I'd get one going. Any thoughts on the first few issues of the Andreyko/Haun run? I like Marc Andreyko (from Manhunter) and went into this with as much of an open mind as possible after the unfortunate departure of Williams/Blackman et al. I miss that art but love how Haun draws Kate Kane and I am enjoying the story so far, despite the fact that it seems less weighty than before. Are people reading this? Did you drop off because of DC Editorial? Exactly how much ass does Batwoman kick (correct answer: all of it) First off "R", as I don't think I've had the chance, let me welcome you to the Forum, and our Talking Comics family! I'm sure you'll find lots of great people around here to chat with! To your question, I dropped Batwoman after what I thought to be the shameful treatment of Williams and Blackman; I couldn't rationalize giving DC any more of my money on that title. I have glanced through the "new version" of the book, and it just seems very conventional, which is quite a change from what it had been previously. |
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Post by JediHunter66 on Feb 24, 2014 11:09:01 GMT -5
I dropped off because of DC Editorial, I don't read very much DC anymore because of their editorial team *cough* Didio *cough*. I really loved the book when Williams and Blackman were on the book though.
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Post by CaptainSuperior on Feb 24, 2014 11:23:41 GMT -5
I liked the original team for this book. The art is what made the series great. I felt if you weren't reading this in print form you were really robbing yourself of a great experience, digital just didn't do it full justice.
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Post by IncredibleD on Feb 24, 2014 12:32:03 GMT -5
Never read anything with Batwoman in it except for some Batman Inc. issues, but i would really like to some day.
The new 52 stuff looks interesting to me, but what i would like to read even more is the Detective Comics story Elegy which i think was written by Greg Rucka.Heard about it on the podcast.
And that costume looks awesome i think.
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Post by rgsc on Feb 24, 2014 13:10:52 GMT -5
First off "R", as I don't think I've had the chance, let me welcome you to the Forum, and our Talking Comics family! I'm sure you'll find lots of great people around here to chat with! To your question, I dropped Batwoman after what I thought to be the shameful treatment of Williams and Blackman; I couldn't rationalize giving DC any more of my money on that title. I have glanced through the "new version" of the book, and it just seems very conventional, which is quite a change from what it had been previously. Thank you very much for the warm welcome, Bob. I'm a fairly new listener to the podcast/reader of the site (since only November or so) but have greatly enjoyed the discussions you have, particularly learning from your deep knowledge of comics history. I hope to be able to continue to learn & share through these forums. I really struggled with the decision to continue on with the title or not after October. In the end, I decided to keep reading as I think the character is one that deserves to be supported for what she represents (an openly queer female title character in the Big2) and because I want to see more of character. I trust Andreyko will treat her well although I am less sure if he will be able to tell the stories he wants given the editorial dictates he must face. That being said, I fully respect the decision to drop the title because of the interference with, and mistreatment of, the creative team. Aside from the astounding art and the rich & complex story lines that marked the initial run, one of the things I enjoyed most about the title was that it was able to inhabit its own little corner of Gotham and the DCU and was unhindered by crossovers (Court of Owls, Death of the Family). The first thing DC did when the creative team was altered was to begin bringing Batwoman in closer to the rest of the Batfamily in Zero Year. That is fine in and of itself, the occasional crossover or tie-in when there is a decent narrative-driven reason is perfectly fine as long as it is not at the expense of the larger story, but I will be very disappointed if that becomes the norm, as has been the case with Batgirl. I know part of the justification for the move to better integrate Batwoman with the rest of Gotham was to bring new readers in but there was speculation that because of the way editorial handled the situation it would backfire and the title would face a massive drop - certainly the anecdotal evidence suggested by the few posts here indicates that dropping was the order of the day! Taking a look at the Diamond numbers (which are not reflective of actual sales in shops, unfortunately; figures from www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html), it seems like there was no/negligible increase in sales with the Zero Yr tie-in but a significant, but not catastrophic drop following the shift in creative team: October (last Williams/Blackman/McCarthy issue) - 25,609 November (Zero Year) - 25,987 December (1st Andreyko/Haun issue) - 23,311 January (2nd Andreyko/Haun issue) - 22,461 I'll be curious to watch this number over the next few months to see how it changes to reflect the actual sales as shops readjust their orders. It is slipping downward to 20K cancel point a little too quickly for my liking. The book definitely is much more conventionally told and drawn than before, but it is not without its interesting elements. The new team seems to be findings its feet both in the narrative and in the depiction of the story. I will continue to read it and hope it will gain some steam. And, if you didn't see it, I highly recommend taking a peek at the dream/hallucination in issue 27 drawn by Francis Manapul which is AMAZING. |
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Post by rgsc on Feb 24, 2014 13:12:50 GMT -5
Never read anything with Batwoman in it except for some Batman Inc. issues, but i would really like to some day. The new 52 stuff looks interesting to me, but what i would like to read even more is the Detective Comics story Elegy which i think was written by Greg Rucka.Heard about it on the podcast.
And that costume looks awesome i think.
Elegy is a must read. I can't recommend it highly enough. And I concur. |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Feb 24, 2014 14:11:33 GMT -5
First off "R", as I don't think I've had the chance, let me welcome you to the Forum, and our Talking Comics family! I'm sure you'll find lots of great people around here to chat with! To your question, I dropped Batwoman after what I thought to be the shameful treatment of Williams and Blackman; I couldn't rationalize giving DC any more of my money on that title. I have glanced through the "new version" of the book, and it just seems very conventional, which is quite a change from what it had been previously. Thank you very much for the warm welcome, Bob. I'm a fairly new listener to the podcast/reader of the site (since only November or so) but have greatly enjoyed the discussions you have, particularly learning from your deep knowledge of comics history. I hope to be able to continue to learn & share through these forums. I really struggled with the decision to continue on with the title or not after October. In the end, I decided to keep reading as I think the character is one that deserves to be supported for what she represents (an openly queer female title character in the Big2) and because I want to see more of character. I trust Andreyko will treat her well although I am less sure if he will be able to tell the stories he wants given the editorial dictates he must face. That being said, I fully respect the decision to drop the title because of the interference with, and mistreatment of, the creative team. Aside from the astounding art and the rich & complex story lines that marked the initial run, one of the things I enjoyed most about the title was that it was able to inhabit its own little corner of Gotham and the DCU and was unhindered by crossovers (Court of Owls, Death of the Family). The first thing DC did when the creative team was altered was to begin bringing Batwoman in closer to the rest of the Batfamily in Zero Year. That is fine in and of itself, the occasional crossover or tie-in when there is a decent narrative-driven reason is perfectly fine as long as it is not at the expense of the larger story, but I will be very disappointed if that becomes the norm, as has been the case with Batgirl. I know part of the justification for the move to better integrate Batwoman with the rest of Gotham was to bring new readers in but there was speculation that because of the way editorial handled the situation it would backfire and the title would face a massive drop - certainly the anecdotal evidence suggested by the few posts here indicates that dropping was the order of the day! Taking a look at the Diamond numbers (which are not reflective of actual sales in shops, unfortunately; figures from www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales.html), it seems like there was no/negligible increase in sales with the Zero Yr tie-in but a significant, but not catastrophic drop following the shift in creative team: October (last Williams/Blackman/McCarthy issue) - 25,609 November (Zero Year) - 25,987 December (1st Andreyko/Haun issue) - 23,311 January (2nd Andreyko/Haun issue) - 22,461 I'll be curious to watch this number over the next few months to see how it changes to reflect the actual sales as shops readjust their orders. It is slipping downward to 20K cancel point a little too quickly for my liking. The book definitely is much more conventionally told and drawn than before, but it is not without its interesting elements. The new team seems to be findings its feet both in the narrative and in the depiction of the story. I will continue to read it and hope it will gain some steam. And, if you didn't see it, I highly recommend taking a peek at the dream/hallucination in issue 27 drawn by Francis Manapul which is AMAZING. "R", It's always my pleasure to welcome folks through the portals! With Batwoman, and also my recent dropping of Worlds' Finest, it is a tough call setting aside books featuring compelling female characters that deserve wider support than they are receiving, as I feel a huge sense of guilt. For me though, with the editorial decisions that led to both of those titles now being less than they should be in terms of their reprensentations of the lead characters, I had to step away. It didn't feel right to be "voting yes" with my wallet, whilst screaming "NO!" with my conscience! ps) I'll catch a glance at that number 27, thanks! rrr |
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Post by rgsc on Feb 24, 2014 16:04:03 GMT -5
"R", It's always my pleasure to welcome folks through the portals! With Batwoman, and also my recent dropping of Worlds' Finest, it is a tough call setting aside books featuring compelling female characters that deserve wider support than they are receiving, as I feel a huge sense of guilt. For me though, with the editorial decisions that led to both of those titles now being less than they should be in terms of their reprensentations of the lead characters, I had to step away. It didn't feel right to be "voting yes" with my wallet, whilst screaming "NO!" with my conscience! ps) I'll catch a glance at that number 27, thanks! rrr I am really struggling with Worlds' Finest for the same reasons you discuss on the podcast. I am going to hang in for the First Contact issues and then make the decision to drop or not. I think you are absolutely right when you say (as you do on the podcast) that we can't offer unwavering support to books/characters that are not worthwhile. I dropped Catwoman for that reason despite wanting with all my heart to support a title starring and authored by a woman. The trick is to figure out how to indicate that support was lost not due to anything inherent with the character but with the treatment. Give the characters good artists & writers and they will (hopefully) find an audience. Handle them poorly and no one will be surprised when the title fails. The argument that the movie studios seem to use worries me, namely that when a female-led movie (Catwoman, Elektra) flops it is because there is no audience for women as leads in superhero movies and therefore they balk at green-lighting more. When a male-led movie fails (Superman Returns, Green Lantern) is it chalked up to extenuating factors and they are willing to give it another shot. I fear that lack of support of a title like Batwoman, WF, or Birds of Prey for that matter, will lead to more of the same and less diversity. |
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Post by scouts1998 on Mar 16, 2014 3:11:54 GMT -5
I read this series in paperbacks so i am up #11 and it is an amazing series. But when i finish Willams/Blackman's run i will probably stop reading it. Half because the new creative team doesn't interest me and the other half is editorial.
I also read when
Williams art is the highlight of the series.
I have yet to read elegy but i look forward to it.
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Post by chrisfabulous on Mar 17, 2014 17:37:51 GMT -5
Elegy is AWESOME! It made me fall in love with the character. Rucca is as good a writer as Williams is an artist. Williams and Blackman are good, too, but the Rucca/Williams combo was magic.
I'm not caught up on the new series either; just the first two trades. Bette is my favorite part of those. Poor Bette.
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Post by Simon on Mar 17, 2014 23:58:34 GMT -5
I recognise that I'm in the minority here but I have the first Batwoman New 52 trade and thought it was completely forgettable, it seemed a little stiff to me in terms of the dialogue and plot. Maybe I'll have to reread it. Is Elegy much better? Because I love Rucka's work on other books.
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Post by chrisfabulous on Mar 18, 2014 6:31:35 GMT -5
I recognise that I'm in the minority here but I have the first Batwoman New 52 trade and thought it was completely forgettable, it seemed a little stiff to me in terms of the dialogue and plot. Maybe I'll have to reread it. Is Elegy much better? Because I love Rucka's work on other books. Yeah, I would say that Elegy is much better. |
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Post by IncredibleD on Apr 13, 2014 23:34:03 GMT -5
I finally read Batwoman Elegy, and its quite something.
Rucka writing is always great i think, but what stood out for me was the art.
I don't think i ever saw JH Williams art before this, and i can't help but be impressed, some of those pages are so beautiful i could look at them for hours.And what i also really liked was that his art style would sometimes change which made it look like it was done by a whole different artist, at least to me.
Its a great book, and now i understand why a lot of people love it.
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Post by iamasianbatgirl on Apr 16, 2014 16:50:12 GMT -5
Elegy is definitely on of the best stories out there. It really got me hooked on DC before new 52 and seeing Batwoman and some of her creators being treated so shamefully by DC just makes me sad. I could have given Andreyko a chance given some of the good things I've heard about his other books but now that this interview is out (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=52141), I think I'll skip it and just enjoy Elegy and the Williams/Blackman run as it was.
This is what Andreyko had to say about the Don't Ask Don't Tell aspect of Batwoman's origin story:
"The whole Don't Ask, Don't Tell thing was a really important part of the Batwoman origin, but now that it's gone, referencing that as the point of drama is like referencing that Flash Thompson fought in the Vietnam War. It dates things."
It might not have that much weight on the flashback story going on right now, but saying that Don't Ask Don't Tell is dated when it was only just abolished a couple of years ago is just ridiculous.
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