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Post by Bob Reyer on Jun 3, 2016 7:59:37 GMT -5
I didn't really read American comics properly until the New 52, I read 2000AD in the 90s, Akira and handful of other Manga and Watchmen. And therein lies my problem with the Rebirth book. Since starting reading DC and quite enjoying it and hearing everyone moan about how great DC used to be etc once I got my head round the characters I started delving back and reading the old stuff, so I wasn't to lost reading reirth, although I didn't really have any emotional attachment to the characters. I enjoyed most of it with Wally West and the DC characters, but I really, really hated bringing Watchmen into it. It felt like a massive middle finger to Moore and Gibbons. I know on the podcast it was mentioned that DC were taking the blame for the dark gritty new 52, but I read it as Johns blaming Moore (obviously there milking the Dark Knight cash cow so Frank Miller can't be blamed) As Bob said, they've already got the Charlton characters in the universe. There's no need for this. Just like Before Watchmen wasn't needed. At least that was it's own thing and could be ignored. I'm hoping that like the Pandora New 52 thing, Dr Manhattan just get's forgotten about and doesn't play into anything. Watchmen should stand alone. That said after my rant, I am super excited for the books going forward. Jon, It is a fascinating parlor game, trying to decipher exactly what motives (if any?) DC had in using Watchmen as their deus ex machina for"Rebirth"; are they blaming Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons for starting the trend that they themselves embraced and drove forward with things like "Dark Knight" (and "TKJ"), simply saying "Can we get a mulligan on the New 52?", or none of the above? I'm still sorting it out, frankly! |
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Rebirth
Jun 3, 2016 12:34:46 GMT -5
Post by Bob Reyer on Jun 3, 2016 12:34:46 GMT -5
I'll be the party pooper on Rebirth #1  I am not a DC reader but I'm familiar with the characters, and I've been looking for an entry point for 2 years now. I'd read Bobby's review of the book and was optimistic that this was where i could get on, and for 3 bucks I figured "why not?!" Having read it, I can see why Bobby liked it and I can see why most DC fans would love it. As a potential reader though everything fell flat and nothing grabbed me. There were a bunch of scenes I could tell were supposed to be emotional (and the folks on the show and others have talked about how touched they were) but I really think you needed to have some kind of attachment or investment in the characters to really "get it". This doesn't mean I think it was necessarily bad, but I came away wondering why I should care. It was totally worth the 3 bucks but I don't see a reason to go any further. Troy, You're certainly not a party-pooper, but you are one of the proofs of how this "Rebirth" can be seen to as very new-reader un-friendly! It will be quite interesting moving forward to see if we can get a look at the demographics of how the sales break down in terms of the split amongst new, continuing, and returning readers, not to mention the age and gender stats! |
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Rebirth
Jun 3, 2016 19:51:59 GMT -5
Post by BarefootRoot on Jun 3, 2016 19:51:59 GMT -5
It will be quite interesting moving forward to see if we can get a look at the demographics of how the sales break down in terms of the split amongst new, continuing, and returning readers, not to mention the age and gender stats! I could see sales of rebirth being very high due to people like me who saw it as a potential starting point. I think all the other books will be where the interesting story lies: if rebirth is big but the other titles are more or less the same it means no new readers came to the other books after reading rebirth... The notion of scapegoating Alan Moore is interesting, and an angle I hadn't thought of. Seems like I remember Dr. M saying at the end that he was going to go away and maybe try his hand at creating his own universe... been a while since I've read the book or seen the film though so I might be making that up |
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Post by wylietimes on Jun 7, 2016 23:27:12 GMT -5
I don't think they are blaming or scapegoating Moore and Gibbons. It is more an acknowledgement that superhero deconstruction started there. It got out of hand with later writers trying to write the next Watchmen.
But if Watchmen is the poster child for deconstruction stories then Rebirth to me has always been reconstruction. They way Johns restored both Green Lantern and Flash with reverence to the history.
I think people are confusing acknowledgement of Watchmen as the bringer of grim and gritty with blame or disrespect. With someone like Johns that isn't likely based on his love and respect of DC and character history.
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Post by majorjay on Jun 8, 2016 3:42:44 GMT -5
I don't think they are blaming or scapegoating Moore and Gibbons. It is more an acknowledgement that superhero deconstruction started there. It got out of hand with later writers trying to write the next Watchmen. But if Watchmen is the poster child for deconstruction stories then Rebirth to me has always been reconstruction. They way Johns restored both Green Lantern and Flash with reverence to the history. I think people are confusing acknowledgement of Watchmen as the bringer of grim and gritty with blame or disrespect. With someone like Johns that isn't likely based on his love and respect of DC and character history. Well said, People often jump to conclusions, before letting their brains actually review with care. Johns is arguable the most capable writer in DC, his works for me are always crafted with care and thought with the aim to ensure that both the characters and their histories are honoured whilst bringing new and personal story telling to the table. look at his Aquaman run, would we care that much about him if johns had not be at the helm of the book to start with. I say lets see how rebirth turns out before jumping to what we think the writers are doing! |
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Rebirth
Jun 9, 2016 11:47:34 GMT -5
Post by BarefootRoot on Jun 9, 2016 11:47:34 GMT -5
I don't think they are blaming or scapegoating Moore and Gibbons. It is more an acknowledgement that superhero deconstruction started there. It got out of hand with later writers trying to write the next Watchmen. But if Watchmen is the poster child for deconstruction stories then Rebirth to me has always been reconstruction. They way Johns restored both Green Lantern and Flash with reverence to the history. I think people are confusing acknowledgement of Watchmen as the bringer of grim and gritty with blame or disrespect. With someone like Johns that isn't likely based on his love and respect of DC and character history. point taken, but it sure sounded like him saying "those guys dropped the ball and I'm going to make it right" to me. matter of perspective I guess  |
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Rebirth
Jun 12, 2016 10:52:12 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wylietimes on Jun 12, 2016 10:52:12 GMT -5
By those guys do you mean current DC? I do think Rebirth was a big Mea Culpa for some of the decisions in recent years. My theory is still that they don't blame Watchmen. Instead the blame the push from DC to make everything Watchmen.
Like many fans have noticed and grew tired of grim and gritty, DC noticed it was no longer selling their books.
Unrelated to the Watchmen thing but Brett Booth's Titans designs look amazing. Tempest has the best look he's had in years
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Rebirth
Jun 13, 2016 4:29:48 GMT -5
Post by BarefootRoot on Jun 13, 2016 4:29:48 GMT -5
By those guys do you mean current DC? his predecessors. |
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Post by wylietimes on Jun 13, 2016 18:05:13 GMT -5
Ah I got you. I tell you what guys I am super excited for Titans this week.
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Rebirth
Jun 14, 2016 2:24:29 GMT -5
Post by BatFonz on Jun 14, 2016 2:24:29 GMT -5
Me too, I have such high hopes for the series but growing up with these characters and being able to continue that journey is awesome, I like Abnett as a writer so hopefully he will give all those great characters their voices back - good times!
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Rebirth
Jun 14, 2016 20:23:24 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wylietimes on Jun 14, 2016 20:23:24 GMT -5
I know not everyone is a fan of Booth but I think his art is fun and his work on Nightwing in New52 was very fluid and showed great movement. For Wally fans his work on speedsters is top notch.
He also came up with some great designs that didn't have too many complicated lines and effects. Tempest looks better than he ever has in my opinion.
I was originally lukewarm on this title as I've been burned on Titans in the past, but now it is looming to be a favorite
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Rebirth
Jun 16, 2016 5:15:36 GMT -5
Post by Bob Reyer on Jun 16, 2016 5:15:36 GMT -5
Across the line, it seems that everyone I speak to is pleased with the direction that the Rebirth books are taking with the characters that they were already picking up; has anyone tried out a title that was something they would not ordinarily have purchased on a regular basis?
Inquiring minds want to know!
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Rebirth
Jun 16, 2016 7:09:25 GMT -5
Post by BatFonz on Jun 16, 2016 7:09:25 GMT -5
Well I am back on board Flash to see if it can regain its momentum [BOOM!] but I only dropped that recently so not sure it counts.
I'm on Titans definitely I still have mixed feelings on Booth's art but Wally is back baby & I will read anything my favorite scarlet speedster is in & there were glimpses of his character. I've not seen mention of Wally's Kids yet as he mentions Linda a lot and her not remembering him but if his Kids were lost in time too my Wally would be breaking reality itself to find them so I wonder has this Wally be tampered with even though he remembers pre-N52 stuff.
I am trying Green Arrow as it was just a beautiful well written book and I think I'll jump on to things as they are released, luckily some of my Image / Indy titles have stopped so funding is available DC don't miss your chance!
I was already getting Detective but I was kinda bored of it but I am right back in for this Detective Comics seems fun and characters are solid to me.
And Wonder Woman was gorgeous and I love the bi-monthly teams so that is a new book for me, this was probably the smartest move DC have made pulling together these teams for WW as it feels almost too good to be true - Lets hope it is an epic long run.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jun 17, 2016 6:25:34 GMT -5
Well I am back on board Flash to see if it can regain its momentum [BOOM!] but I only dropped that recently so not sure it counts. I'm on Titans definitely I still have mixed feelings on Booth's art but Wally is back baby & I will read anything my favorite scarlet speedster is in & there were glimpses of his character. I've not seen mention of Wally's Kids yet as he mentions Linda a lot and her not remembering him but if his Kids were lost in time too my Wally would be breaking reality itself to find them so I wonder has this Wally be tampered with even though he remembers pre-N52 stuff. I am trying Green Arrow as it was just a beautiful well written book and I think I'll jump on to things as they are released, luckily some of my Image / Indy titles have stopped so funding is available DC don't miss your chance! I was already getting Detective but I was kinda bored of it but I am right back in for this Detective Comics seems fun and characters are solid to me. And Wonder Woman was gorgeous and I love the bi-monthly teams so that is a new book for me, this was probably the smartest move DC have made pulling together these teams for WW as it feels almost too good to be true - Lets hope it is an epic long run. Simon, There does seem to be a huge element of "fun" to all the Rebirth-ed series so far, and based on what I'm hearing from retailers, that is resonating very strongly with readers who had drifted away from DC. Here's hoping for some great stories with these more classic versions of these iconic characters! |
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Post by wylietimes on Jun 18, 2016 18:35:26 GMT -5
Per a small store near me the Rebirth stuff has been selling great. I hope the momentum continues.
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I am not a DC reader but I'm familiar with the characters, and I've been looking for an entry point for 2 years now. I'd read Bobby's review of the book and was optimistic that this was where i could get on, and for 3 bucks I figured "why not?!"
