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Post by henrythemorerecent on Jul 22, 2015 22:30:43 GMT -5
It's not really my place to speak on this topic because I'm a white guy. But after this weeks podcast reviewing Ant-Man, I couldn't help but be frustrated at how forgiving everyone was about the lack of representation in the Marvel movies. The fact they've gone this long with nothing but white male led films and how this is such a hot button topic at the moment and yet they continue to be given a light "Look, they're getting there" pat on the back.
In the past couple years I've gone from someone who enjoyed the Marvel films to someone who is tired of them. I get they're fun. But I much more enjoy the things other studios are doing. But the popularity and exposure of the Marvel films, compared with the critisisms of the other side of the fence are what has made me think about this subject. And I feel like some facts, not my opinions, need to be pointed out:
We'll start with Fox. Jennifer Lawrence has taken on a lead role in the X-Men franchise. Apocalypse has added 4 more female leads to the X-team of different backgrounds. Fantastic Four is coming out next month and while majority is male cast, it is both diverse and with a female lead. Then there's WB/DC. They have cast diverse actors in their Justice League roster from Aquaman, Cyborg to Wonder Woman. Introducing the most popular female superhero in the world in their second film in their universe soon followed by her own solo film a year later. Don't even get me started on the diversity of Suicide Squad. Hell, even Star Wars has taking steps. All of these have taken HUGE steps with less than a year in sight, some even days or months in sight.
Yet Marvel studios have been doing this 12 movies long and cannot seem to grasp the idea that changes need to be made and soon?
Now taste aside, every other superhero franchise since Iron Man is 100% every single time compared to the Marvel Studios films in quality and tone etc. But the most important factor is representation which trumps continuity, source material, and everything else us nerds complain about. And every other franchise is doing/has done something about this. Yet it will have taken Marvel 10 years, from 2008 to 2018, to have a solo female superhero movie and a movie with a non-white lead. 10 years. From my highscool years to my late twenties. That is just plain stupid.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 23, 2015 6:45:08 GMT -5
Henry, For what it's worth, (and in case people haven't listened yet!) my opening remarks in our "spoiler-y" section of this week's show highlighted some of the concerns people have with "Ant-Man" and the character of Hope, as well as my personal desire to have seen a "Hank & Jan" film first. As I said on-air, I see and can agree with many of the points being brought out, but where I tend to disagree is that I thought Hank's reasoning for his actions had sound dramatic footing, and that I thought there was a nice arc to Hope's character, and certainly to her father's thoughts about her abilities. This led, I believe, to a brief-but-thoughtful discussion regarding some of the larger issues, and one that I hope that we'll expand upon in a future episode. Certainly you are correct in saying that Marvel should have had a female-led film before now, but I do think it a mite un-charitable to use DC films as yet unreleased or un-made such as "Cyborg", "Wonder Woman", "Justice League", and at this point, "BvS", as proof of their diversity, but not include "Captain Marvel", "Civil War", "Doctor Strange", or "Black Panther" on Marvel's side of the ledger. Not that this excuses Marvel of their shortsightedness, particularly regarding a "Black Widow" film, but let's remember to hold to the motto that both the Golden Age and Modern Mr. Terrific used to wear on their costumes, which proudly proclaimed "Fair Play!"  |
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Post by henrythemorerecent on Jul 23, 2015 15:59:25 GMT -5
Henry, For what it's worth, (and in case people haven't listened yet!) my opening remarks in our "spoiler-y" section of this week's show highlighted some of the concerns people have with "Ant-Man" and the character of Hope, as well as my personal desire to have seen a "Hank & Jan" film first. As I said on-air, I see and can agree with many of the points being brought out, but where I tend to disagree is that I thought Hank's reasoning for his actions had sound dramatic footing, and that I thought there was a nice arc to Hope's character, and certainly to her father's thoughts about her abilities. This led, I believe, to a brief-but-thoughtful discussion regarding some of the larger issues, and one that I hope that we'll expand upon in a future episode. Certainly you are correct in saying that Marvel should have had a female-led film before now, but I do think it a mite un-charitable to use DC films as yet unreleased or un-made such as "Cyborg", "Wonder Woman", "Justice League", and at this point, "BvS", as proof of their diversity, but not include "Captain Marvel", "Civil War", "Doctor Strange", or "Black Panther" on Marvel's side of the ledger. Not that this excuses Marvel of their shortsightedness, particularly regarding a "Black Widow" film, but let's remember to hold to the motto that both the Golden Age and Modern Mr. Terrific used to wear on their costumes, which proudly proclaimed "Fair Play!" I understand using DC's unreleased films (lets not exclude Fox from this though also) against Marvel's unreleased films seems unfair. But I'm not just talking about the content as much as the decision making. Marvel have had time and time again to do it, always siting the excuse "Black Widow wouldn't work", cutting Wasp from the original Avengers, cutting Captain Marvel from Age of Ultron. And yes just as DC announced this slate, Marvel did to. And this isn't about being a measuring contest, but BvS was already well into production, Wonder Woman and Cyborg already cast. Aquaman soon following. But the problem is Marvel have had a much longer head start. WB have come out with 1 film. Only 1. And have now made plans for all those in the future. Marvel took 10 movies to come to that same decision. But worse still, pushing the only 2 diverse films they have on their slate back for yet another reboot of Spider-Man because "he's back with the family" and guess what, he's white again. All I'm saying is, to every other studio it seems to be a no brainer, and comes naturally. They don't need an on the nose "About damn time" sting. And Kevin Feige have been avoiding the subject and saying stupid things about it for a couple years now. I mean now I'm just reaching, but it's not encouraging when even the main cast of Avengers (Chris Evans and Jeremy Renner) call Black Widow a slut.
I don't know. I think the fact that early next year I will be watching Supergirl on the small screen and Wonder Woman on the big screen at the same time (not literally) says something.
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Post by angelus104 on Jul 23, 2015 17:03:37 GMT -5
You aren't wrong. I think we've all been pretty critical of that reaching back well over a year to around the days of Guardians.
Any blame about the way the film is reviewed falls to me though. Don't get me wrong I think the lack of a female led film is a giant missed opportunity and I also think it's a glaring fault in their work. However when we get down to individual films, reviewing them on the basis of everything else serves no one. It's not Peyton Reed, Paul Rudd and co's fault that other films did things wrong or that the Marvel cannon is lacking. We still talk about it. It just can't be the basis in my opinion.
The other point I will make is the this sort of issue is prevalent in all of Hollywood. Female led action films are few and far between because of the hair brained idea they won't sell. Marvel's CEO Ike Perlmutter is one of the chief offenders of this. As he was shown in the Sony leaks to be saying that Marvel wasn't doing them because they wouldn't succeed. It's a wonder to me we have a Captain Marvel movie coming at all.
I hope this clears up a little of the philosophy behind the review. I always strive to have two separate discussions as I'm a bit of an idealist when it comes to taking story for story sake. But not naive enough to think there aren't other factors. It's a balance I always try to strike, maybe sometimes it's out of whack but all we can do is our best.
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Post by BarefootRoot on Jul 23, 2015 21:59:32 GMT -5
My wife thought the plot-reasoning regarding hope made total sense and didn't see anything wrong with it (we actually discussed this yesterday).  |
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Post by harmonica on Jul 24, 2015 3:30:15 GMT -5
My wife thought the plot-reasoning regarding hope made total sense and didn't see anything wrong with it (we actually discussed this yesterday). actually i thought the whole hope stuff in ant-man felt really meta to me, with the "its about goddamn time", at least thats what i hope |
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Post by lennyreid on Jul 24, 2015 9:01:23 GMT -5
You aren't wrong. I think we've all been pretty critical of that reaching back well over a year to around the days of Guardians. Any blame about the way the film is reviewed falls to me though. Don't get me wrong I think the lack of a female led film is a giant missed opportunity and I also think it's a glaring fault in their work. However when we get down to individual films, reviewing them on the basis of everything else serves no one. It's not Peyton Reed, Paul Rudd and co's fault that other films did things wrong or that the Marvel cannon is lacking. We still talk about it. It just can't be the basis in my opinion. The other point I will make is the this sort of issue is prevalent in all of Hollywood. Female led action films are few and far between because of the hair brained idea they won't sell. Marvel's CEO Ike Perlmutter is one of the chief offenders of this. As he was shown in the Sony leaks to be saying that Marvel wasn't doing them because they wouldn't succeed. It's a wonder to me we have a Captain Marvel movie coming at all. I hope this clears up a little of the philosophy behind the review. I always strive to have two separate discussions as I'm a bit of an idealist when it comes to taking story for story sake. But not naive enough to think there aren't other factors. It's a balance I always try to strike, maybe sometimes it's out of whack but all we can do is our best. That Ike Perlmutter email was hilariously self-damning, in that he cited Elektra, Catwoman, and Supergirl, as the reasons female-lead super-hero movies don't work. Elektra wasn't advertised sufficiently, and didn't seem like a break-out character from the Affleck DD movie. There was so much confusion about whether or not Catwoman was based on any version of the DC property around the time of its release. Could not have helped. Also it was terrible. Perlmutter had to go back to 1984's Supergirl for another example. None of these examples had anywhere near the interest and exposure that super-heroes have today. It goes to show that despite Disney harvesting all the money at the moment, there are still people up on high in the company that have some strange and outdated views. Tis Hollywood though. The only way it changes is slowly, but it always changes. |
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Post by sammiecassell on Jul 27, 2015 22:01:59 GMT -5
Ok, here I go again. I'll probably get killed for this, but here's maybe a different perspective. While I also agree there should be more representation of gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. in comics, TV, movies, books (everyone should have a hero/s that they can root for, that they can champion, that they can enjoy) created by someone with talent regardless of their status. I do still think a female led superhero movie may struggle. Now, before yall go ballistic, hear me out. First, the examples of Elektra and the others are terrible examples of what a female led superhero movie can be. The box office was terrible because the movie was terrible. But, there are good examples, Lucy for example was by all accounts a good movie, led by a favored actress. It had the backing and the money of the studio behind it. They advertised the crap out of it and gave it every chance to succeed. But it didn't, why?
This spring, Bobby trumpeted the fact that Pitch Perfect 2 beat Mad Max. But what did that really tell us? We,as a group, want to see female led movies and books succeed, but does the general populace right now? What about just the female populace? If you have a Wonder Woman movie it's going to be a hit. But what about that Captain Marvel movie, or that Black Panther movie? My fear is that it's going to be rough going for a while. I'm scared that even though Pitch Perfect was a hit, it was a female movie from an established franchise marketed to young female women. I'm not sure Captain Marvel is going to draw that much because it's a NEW female led movie marketed to older women. I'm not sure the younger women to kids are going to know or care......to begin with. It's going to take years of building and forming young minds, in getting those kids to where they know and love those heroes. I mean how many YOUNG female readers know who Captain Marvel is. Will that movie draw that 65/70 % female audience that PP did? Black Panther bothers me even more for the same reasons (although with race not gender, how many African Americans jumped on the superhero bandwagon with Blade)
This is a starting point, and will affect the future BUT how long will the good ole boy network give good movies with so-so box office a chance?. How can WE help with the education process and give these wonderful characters and hopefully great movies the best chance possible to succeed?
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Post by lennyreid on Jul 28, 2015 9:06:11 GMT -5
Ok, here I go again. I'll probably get killed for this, but here's maybe a different perspective. While I also agree there should be more representation of gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. in comics, TV, movies, books (everyone should have a hero/s that they can root for, that they can champion, that they can enjoy) created by someone with talent regardless of their status. I do still think a female led superhero movie may struggle. Now, before yall go ballistic, hear me out. First, the examples of Elektra and the others are terrible examples of what a female led superhero movie can be. The box office was terrible because the movie was terrible. But, there are good examples, Lucy for example was by all accounts a good movie, led by a favored actress. It had the backing and the money of the studio behind it. They advertised the crap out of it and gave it every chance to succeed. But it didn't, why? This spring, Bobby trumpeted the fact that Pitch Perfect 2 beat Mad Max. But what did that really tell us? We,as a group, want to see female led movies and books succeed, but does the general populace right now? What about just the female populace? If you have a Wonder Woman movie it's going to be a hit. But what about that Captain Marvel movie, or that Black Panther movie? My fear is that it's going to be rough going for a while. I'm scared that even though Pitch Perfect was a hit, it was a female movie from an established franchise marketed to young female women. I'm not sure Captain Marvel is going to draw that much because it's a NEW female led movie marketed to older women. I'm not sure the younger women to kids are going to know or care......to begin with. It's going to take years of building and forming young minds, in getting those kids to where they know and love those heroes. I mean how many YOUNG female readers know who Captain Marvel is. Will that movie draw that 65/70 % female audience that PP did? Black Panther bothers me even more for the same reasons (although with race not gender, how many African Americans jumped on the superhero bandwagon with Blade) This is a starting point, and will affect the future BUT how long will the good ole boy network give good movies with so-so box office a chance?. How can WE help with the education process and give these wonderful characters and hopefully great movies the best chance possible to succeed? Lucy made $458million Worldwide, and even the US Domestic total was 3x the $40million budget. If anything, that film should be used as a reason a female-lead movie would - and did - absolutely work in the current climate. I understand the angle though, Sammie. I'm of the thought that people look at the demographics too much with these things. Used often as a reason NOT to do something rather than to just take a chance. |
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Post by angelus104 on Jul 28, 2015 10:52:47 GMT -5
Hollywood is a risk adverse business as is any industry that spends hundreds of millions of dollars on anything. However there is a perception vs. reality problem when it comes to these things. Case in point Sammie, you calling Lucy a failure when it was in fact a huge success. Not just for a female led film but for an original film of any kind.
Then there is of course the the issue that films are not judged by their makers solely by how much total money they make, but by how much it makes in regards to its original budget. The practice of judging what films are successful and are not is difficult when just looking at BO receipts.
The other aspect of this it tokenism. The idea that if "blank" film doesn't succeed it's a statement about an entire race or gender leading a movie. No one says "Ted 2 made bad money so that means all comedies with a white dude should now be rethought" it's just a failure on its own.
All movies based on known properties make more than ones that are not. But its also a mistake to write off something like Pitch Perfect 2 because it's a sequel. It's a sequel that has made over 3 times the amount of its predecessor which is insane, don't discount Trainwreck a gross out comedy led by Amy Schumer which opened to 30 roughly million and will gross over 100. Cinderella made 200 million this year and Malificent 240 million last. Fault in Our Stars made 124 million out of nowhere for us not in the know. The Twilight franchise has raked in 1.3 billion domestic and if you want action as proof in the pudding you need look no further than The Hunger Games, which has made 1.16 billion domestically and is a merchandising powerhouse.
On the subject of the known quantities of Captain Marvel or Black Panther....they are more known than Guardians was, and I will say that by the time they come out will have gotten more coverage in our current superhero crazed climate than Iron Man, Cap or Thor ever got before they hit screens. The Blade comparison is very old, pre MCU, pre the breakout of hero films, also means nothing without stats. Do you know the breakdown of audiences white vs. black for superhero movies? Because I don't.
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Post by sammiecassell on Jul 28, 2015 12:03:18 GMT -5
Oops, I stand corrected, I thought Lucy was considered a "flop". well if that's the case, ignore my whole post, the future does look bright for everyone. I put Cinderella & Maleficient in the book w/ Pitch Perfect where it's more geared towards Young people but I completely forget Twilight (which aren't even good movies) & Hunger Games. & the Fault in Stars?? Really? Wow!
My point was never to not make these movies, my point was how can we help make them a success. I still worry about Black Panther, I can only hope it brings a whole new demographic. , as I deal with more & more kids, I see how much diversity is needed. I hear a lot of young girls say their favorite hero is Batgirl or Wonder Woman (pretty sure Supergirl will be up there after this fall) but I almost never hear a different race child say their favorite is Black Panther or Cyborg or Jonathan Stewart or Miles Morales or Storm or...:.....it's still Superman, Batman, Spider-Man. Is this bad? Will there ever be a female, black, Asian, or gay hero as popular as any of these just because of all the history behind them?
What can WE do?
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Post by BatFonz on Jul 29, 2015 7:23:22 GMT -5
I would love to know what the numbers are for Men / Woman at the cinema. My wife loves the cinema and we go as often as possible but I had to go through a few to get one that did  [giggiddy...oh yeah! #objectivism] I do know that the Financial Director [Wifey] only ever asks me to take her to see Male Lead films, exhibit A: Magic Mike [insert any/all Channing Tatum films - #unbelievable #objectivism] and it has tended to be me that has championed seeing female lead films, exhibit B: Mad Max, Lucy, Debbie does Dallas... So I think what I am clearly saying here is that both me and the wife thoroughly enjoyed Jupiter Ascending! |
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Post by henrythemorerecent on Jul 29, 2015 17:20:07 GMT -5
I think there's a lot to be said as well for just how people are, not trained, but almost force fed a type of movie. I'm wording this stupid. Let me start again. And in line with what BatFonz was saying. My older sister, big fan of superhero movies, flew to SDCC with me, reads the occasional comic like Saga, Y: The Last Man things like that. She loved Man of Steel and is excited for BvS. But when she saw the trailer said "Why is Wonder Woman in this movie? Who cares. Show me Batmand and Superman." And this wasn't purely out of a Henry Cavill-carved-out-of-pure-perfection opinion. And on that note she absolutely hates Scarlett Johanssen in the Marvel movies. Same opinion my wife has on these movies.
So on the one hand I would call them ignorant and start ranting about representation in movies. But on the other hand who am I to talk? I'm a 25 year old piece of white bread. They have more to say on wanting a female movie than I do. Yet are more excited by the other characters.
I also have a black nephew. 8 years old. I take him to every movie, buy him comics etc. I'd been buying him Miles Morales, but recently I bought him We Are Robin and now Cyborg all as a way of conciously showing him not every hero is a big white guy. But he saw pictures of Superman. And Batman in the big robot suit. He wanted those more.
So is it just purely their personal opinion or is it because of years of Hollywood and pop culture force-feeding these white male icons into our faces? Wonder Woman hasn't exactly been a staple of the screen for the last 40 years, why would somebody care now?
I'm just bringing this all up for the sake of discussion just because I'm old enough to know what is right, but also I don't allow personal nit-picks to get in the way of progress. Progress is whats important.
People have been bringing up Elekra and Catwoman. I dont think those movies can be judged by their peers. The superhero movies in general of that time were basically practices in bad CGI and an excuse to get Nu-Metal on a soundtrack. Punisher, Daredevil, FF etc. It just wasn't a good time. There were good ones like Raimi's Spider-Man and Singer's X-Men, but look at the quality of director and the passion they brought to it compared to the others. But everyone was learning. These days I'm hearing a lot of nitpicking about things of a certain time. It's ridiculous. You cannot judge the quality of something of a particular time to todays standards. Both comics and films. Comparing the Affleck Daredevil to the Netflix DD is like comparing a horse and cart to a car. Sure a car is better quality these days. But back then a horse and cart did the job.
Which brings it back to progress. Wonder Woman in BvS and eventually in her solo film, purely from a filmmaking and marketing standard will be better than the likes of Elektra and Catwoman just because the times have changed. But then add to that the fact you've got a director who is passionate about the comics and characters (personal tastes aside) its better than someone who is just handpicked, given and cheque and a handful of comics and told "Make this". But more importantly an actress who has openly stated what she wanted this character to be and what she didn't want her to be. She wants to be a role model. Then you've got Amy Adam's who since MoS has said she grew up wanting to be Lois Lane. Because she loved the Superman movie.
These movies very much dictate what fans and curious audience members will check out. Movies made me collect comics again as an adult. The Marvel movies are the reason why so many people are reading comics. Batman comic sell like crazy because of the popularity in films. Even recently, after years of reading comics and just never having a major interest in Wonder Woman, I now have a Wonder Woman solo title in my standing order because of her inclusion in BvS. I said this in the Wonder Woman thread, I will be able to buy my niece a freaking Wonder Woman Barbie doll soon. And just yesterday Rachel McAdams made her situation clear with regards to Dr Strange, saying she'd much rather play a DC role like Black Orchid. Which made me look up Black Orchid. And I bought Black Orchid by Neil Gaiman.
Kevin Feige can't go on all he wants about how a Black Widow movie just won't work and how there's no rush to put out a female superhero movie. Yet make Guardians of the Galaxy and more specifically an Ant-Man movie, a movie that barring all personal opinions, I've heard more general audience people say "What a stupid looking movie" than I have positive. Yet it worked and was a success. Ant-Man.
But progress is happening, it's just everyone is looking for it in the wrong direction.
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[giggiddy...oh yeah! #objectivism]