Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 13:10:39 GMT -5
New to the forums, but have been listening to the podcast for a couple of years. I wanted to comment on the discussion in this week’s podcast that was sparked by the Spider-Man/Marvel/Sony news. I’m sure I’ll get my butt kicked on here for what I have to say, but I’ll take my chances. I'm 42 and have been buying comic books for over two decades. I saw Christopher Reeve fly as Superman (in the theater!), Lynda Carter twirl as Wonder Woman, and Lou Ferrigno "smash"(prior to syndication!). As someone who has been around quite a while and watched the industry evolve, I can't help but laugh and simultaneously fume when I hear all the skepticism and complaining that seems to happen all-too-often on the podcast. Regarding the Spider-Man news and how it will "effect" other scheduled movies, I remember a time when there was "only" Superman (1978, 1980, 1983). Then there was a 6 year void before the first Batman movie. While not great movies, we were beyond thrilled to have them. The point being that this is an amazing time to be a comic book fan.
We're so inundated with all-things-comics that it's sometimes overwhelming. Whereas some people still find things to complain about, people like me are gleefully consuming as much as humanly possible. It's like everyone was given a million dollars and some people are complaining that it's all in 10's. Maybe you should just say thank you. That’s not to say there isn’t room for criticism, but I’m sometimes surprised by the lack of support the podcast gives to some comic book related items- “Gotham” comes to mind. You don’t have to like everything- its art, so it’s subjective. …but it’s important to always be supportive of the industry, even if something isn’t particularly our cup of tea- rather than bash it and turn people off of it. Is it perfect? No. Are there things each of us would do differently? Probably. If you had told me ten years ago that there would be "7" TV shows based on comic books playing in primetime on network and cable television, I'd tell you you're crazy. 2+ comic book movies a year instead of one every two years? I'd tell you that's wishful thinking. Fun interactive conventions, superb independent comics, titles and genres to appeal to almost everyone... It's a great time to be a comic book fan. Marvel has access to Spider-Man? That's amazing!!! What is there to be skeptical about??? Six months ago that was a pipe dream, but upon getting confirmation, the podcast's reaction was, in so many words, "well, um, it depends on who plays him and how they use him... I really don't want another solo movie..." It’s gotten to the point that when I hear seemingly good news on the podcast, I take a deep breath and wait to hear who’s going to suck the air out of the room with some pessimistic viewpoint. When you complain about getting things you didn't have just a few days earlier, it starts to sound like entitlement.
Onto a slightly different topic, the conversation turned from talking about the specifics of the Marvel/Sony deal to "Now I have to wait 6 months to see Captain Marvel". The talk continued on what has become a routine path to "there aren't enough female titles on the shelves" and "there aren't enough female writers and artists in the industry". Let me say, I agree both of those things could be better, but we're leaps and bounds ahead of where we were even just 5 years ago. Regarding female titles, thank you Bobby for pointing out what seems painfully obvious to me, but is lost on Stephanie on what seems to be a weekly basis: sales keep books in stores. It's economics- plain and simple. Stephanie points a finger at Marvel for pulling books like She-Hulk, but at no point have I ever heard her place the blame where it really belongs: on female readers. From the imperfect data I've found, it's estimated that 40-45% of all comic book readers are women. That seems high, but it's the percentage that kept popping up in articles. In November 2014, She-Hulk sold 20,188 books- Elektra sold 14,132 books. If female readers account for nearly half of all readers, then why did those two books sell so poorly? I want to point out that She-Hulk and Elektra have been on many male reader's pull lists, so women can’t even take credit for 100% of those paltry numbers. I heard complaints on the podcast when Marvel announced they were cancelling these female titles. Stephanie said they should keep them anyway- I guess for the sake of diversity?... and that makes perfect sense- Marvel should definitely keep books on the shelves that women will continue to ignore each month. Captain Marvel- a female led book with one of the best female writers in the business (it's also one of my favorite books) sold 19,527 in January 2015. Again, where are all the female readers? Carol is on most, if not all, of my male friend's pull lists. When compared to Marvel's month-after-month #1 seller, Amazing Spider-Man (over 100,000 every month), how can anyone question Marvel's logic in pushing Captain Marvel for the opportunity to inject Peter Parker into the MCU? Complaining (which sounded more like whining) about a 6 month delay is what I would expect to hear from my 10 year old nephew.
Here’s where the train derails… In my opinion, there are two kinds of feminists in the comic book world: those like Kelly Sue DeConnick who know the industry still has a lot of catching up to do, and while being vocal about it remain super-positive and supportive. I don't think anyone utilizes social media better than her when it comes to promoting women in comics- be it female fans, female characters, female artists, or other female writers. On the other end of the spectrum are the feminists who think they are somehow helping their cause with relentless sarcasm and negativity. Let’s blame the publisher for female readers not supporting female titles and/or female creators. Keep pouting, snark, sighing aloud, and telling us how frustrated they are.... let me know how that works out for you. For reference, of the 25 books on my pull list, nearly half feature female lead characters and/or female writers or artists. Many of my male friends are buying these same books. Although they are moving slow at times, the problem isn't the publishers- nor is it lack of support from male readers. That's my two cents. Probably my only post ever, so I decided to push all my chips to the center. On a positive note, although I'm often frustrated with the podcast, I continue to listen because I've been turned onto books I may not of otherwise known about.
|
|
|
|
Post by jonathansoko on Feb 13, 2015 16:21:44 GMT -5
I would assume he's become the character and then get his own show! If he got a lantern show, I may punch my mom and leap from a tall building out of excitement! |
|
|
|
Post by Raider30 on Feb 13, 2015 16:28:45 GMT -5
Heyo,
Just a quick note to say I agree with the above post. I was struck by many of the same thoughts as I was listening to the podcast today on a 3hr drive home. It seems like there are 30-45 minutes of every podcast that devolve into a borderline preachy lecture on the role of women in comics, both as creators and characters, and the 'lack of diversity' in the industry, again both as creators and characters. Honestly, I love the podcast but it does start to get a bit tiresome to feel lectured to because I don't care if Cyborg is written by a black man, white man, red man, yellow woman, brown transsexual, etc....I just want a good story and good art to go with it. What I don't want is the unfair expectation placed upon the Cyborg title that it will somehow be better because it's a black character written by a black man. What happens if it sucks?
I love hearing you guys advocate for your favorite comics, but it's kind of funny because you will spend many an hour talking about how this book rocks, or that story was amazing, or that art was fantastic, and when you are describing it and advocating for it almost exclusively you are discussing the *writing*, the *art*, the *layouts*, etc., but I don't think I can say I've ever heard anyone say "I love this book *because* it was written by a woman."
- Beau, Raider30
|
|
|
|
Post by angelus104 on Feb 13, 2015 16:56:10 GMT -5
I appreciate the feedback. But here is the deal. If you want a podcast that doesn't talk about those topics that's not us. We are all social issue minded people who believe in voicing our thoughts on them. We also believe it's important to because of the amount of people who write in talking about how us caring about the issues has made them feel more comfortable in the comic book world. There are enough places that just talk about books. We don't have any interest in just being that.
If that's tiresome to you, it doesn't make you a bad person or a sexist but it also doesn't make us wrong for pursuing our passions. You are welcome to your opinion just as we are to ours.
On a point of fact I will say this though. I seriously doubt (other than when it's the topic of the show) that we spend 45 minutes an episode preaching to you. And I never said Cyborg would be better if written by a person of color, I simply said it's nice to see it occurring in a predominantly white industry. When the book comes out the actually execution is judged regardless of race or gender. However, The creation of art, especially commercial art, does not exist in an ideallic vacuum and I won't treat it like it does.
If I'm going to spend the few free hours of my life I have creating something you can be damn sure I'm going to be proud of it. And because of what we do every week I am. That's not going to change.
|
|
|
|
Post by Raider30 on Feb 13, 2015 18:22:31 GMT -5
I appreciate the feedback. But here is the deal. If you want a podcast that doesn't talk about those topics that's not us. We are all social issue minded people who believe in voicing our thoughts on them. We also believe it's important to because of the amount of people who write in talking about how us caring about the issues has made them feel more comfortable in the comic book world. There are enough places that just talk about books. We don't have any interest in just being that. If that's tiresome to you, it doesn't make you a bad person or a sexist but it also doesn't make us wrong for pursuing our passions. You are welcome to your opinion just as we are to ours. On a point of fact I will say this though. I seriously doubt (other than when it's the topic of the show) that we spend 45 minutes an episode preaching to you. And I never said Cyborg would be better if written by a person of color, I simply said it's nice to see it occurring in a predominantly white industry. When the book comes out the actually execution is judged regardless of race or gender. However, The creation of art, especially commercial art, does not exist in an ideallic vacuum and I won't treat it like it does. If I'm going to spend the few free hours of my life I have creating something you can be damn sure I'm going to be proud of it. And because of what we do every week I am. That's not going to change. Right, that was kind of my point. You believe in voicing your thoughts on issues you are concerned about. That's cool man. Everyone does it, don't assume you are the only 'social issue minded people'. But, when I hear a one sided discussion, repeated, yeah it gets tiresome. You folks are all clearly invested in this medium and have a respectable knowledge about it, so how come when someone grumps about Marvel canceling She-Hulk and Elektra, not one of you expands the discussion by talking about the business aspect of the industry? Why not delve into the topic more and work to educate the audience. Seek to answer questions like "How many issues have to be sold to make a comic commercially viable", or "Did the writer have a 6 issue arc, or a 12 issue arc planned and that wrapped it up?", or talk about the history of She-Hulk's titles, why isn't she a 'premium' character? Do an episode on how many new characters have appeared in the past 10-15-20 years and how many of them are still around, much less have their own book, etc. Why is the implication automatically that the book was canceled because it was a female led book? Maybe you guys don't intend it to come off that way, but it sure does. And yes, you are right, if slightly condescending, it doesn't make me a bad person or a sexist, nor does it make you wrong(or right for that matter). I said it *seems like* there are 30-45 minutes of every podcast. Maybe it's 10 minutes and it feels like an eternity ::shrug::. Quibble with the number if you want, it's not a 'fact', just a feeling. Coming on the heels of an episode in which a large chunk was in fact devoted to human rights and comics, and really it's brought up in one form or another in pretty much every podcast I can remember. Certainly you can forgive my estimation... I do take issue with your response the Cyborg comment. If you, or anyone else(and I've heard it elsewhere too, not just taking issue with you), specifically points out that a black character is now being written by a black writer, the clear implication is that it is better. Otherwise why mention the race of either at all? IMO, it puts an unfair expectation on the comic, and the writer for that matter. Like I said, what happens if it fails? Is it because the writer was black? Is it because the white, male dominated, comic fanboy rejected a black writer? Is it because the story went nowhere after 8 issues? What if it succeeds? Is it because the writer is black? Is it because the white, male dominated, comic fanboy embraced 'diversity'? Or is it because the story was super cool and dynamic? I dunno man, I guess I'm just one of those guys who likes to have stuff naturally flow into my life instead of being beaten over the head with it. As an example, in Batgirl(before the change over to her new book), her roommate came out to her as a transsexual. I hadn't heard about it before I read the book. It came at a great, natural moment in the book, it wasn't forced in, and when I read it I remember thinking "damn, that's cool - I really like how the writer handled this, I wonder where it's going to go." But when I hear Marvel or DC trumpeting in a press release about their latest gay character it comes off as phony and self-serving. I'm not so much into phony and self-serving. Regards, - Beau, Raider30 ps: For what it's worth, I continue to listen to the podcast because outside of certain topics(IMO), you guys do a great job, especially with bringing up comics/books that might be a bit more obscure, though at 3hrs per podcast your killing me! |
|
|
|
Post by Huw on Feb 13, 2015 20:53:02 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to say the TC crew assume that they're the only "social issue minded people." They are strong advocates of equality and diversity, but just because they champion a cause doesn't mean that they believe their word is more valid than another who champions the same cause.
I have to disagree with you when you say you think Bobby saying Cyborg being taken on by a black writer is a good thing means that it will be better by default as a result. That feels very much like reading between the lines and drawing a conclusion that is subjective based on how you interpreted what Bobby said.
|
|
|
|
Post by Raider30 on Feb 13, 2015 23:23:50 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you when you say you think Bobby saying Cyborg being taken on by a black writer is a good thing means that it will be better by default as a result. That feels very much like reading between the lines and drawing a conclusion that is subjective based on how you interpreted what Bobby said. Seriously? It wasn't "Oh cool a Cyborg book". It was a black character written by a black writer...what other reason for pointing that out could there be? Why bring up race if it's not about race? Like I said, I'm not singling him out, he wasn't the first to make that implication but it's quite clearly there and frankly it's disingenuous argue otherwise. - Beau, Raider30 ps: Btw, I'm excited for the Cyborg book because of Ivan Reis. I love that guys work and think he's going to just nail it. |
|
|
|
Post by Huw on Feb 14, 2015 7:36:28 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you when you say you think Bobby saying Cyborg being taken on by a black writer is a good thing means that it will be better by default as a result. That feels very much like reading between the lines and drawing a conclusion that is subjective based on how you interpreted what Bobby said. Seriously? It wasn't "Oh cool a Cyborg book". It was a black character written by a black writer...what other reason for pointing that out could there be? Why bring up race if it's not about race? Like I said, I'm not singling him out, he wasn't the first to make that implication but it's quite clearly there and frankly it's disingenuous argue otherwise. - Beau, Raider30 ps: Btw, I'm excited for the Cyborg book because of Ivan Reis. I love that guys work and think he's going to just nail it. What other reason? Diversity and representation in comics. There aren't many black characters and probably even fewer black writers, so why shouldn't it be celebrated when a book has both? The presumed quality of the title wasn't even addressed. It's another small step forward for diversity in the industry, I'm pretty sure that is what the point was. |
|
|
|
Post by Raider30 on Feb 14, 2015 9:26:14 GMT -5
Seriously? It wasn't "Oh cool a Cyborg book". It was a black character written by a black writer...what other reason for pointing that out could there be? Why bring up race if it's not about race? Like I said, I'm not singling him out, he wasn't the first to make that implication but it's quite clearly there and frankly it's disingenuous argue otherwise. - Beau, Raider30 ps: Btw, I'm excited for the Cyborg book because of Ivan Reis. I love that guys work and think he's going to just nail it. What other reason? Diversity and representation in comics. There aren't many black characters and probably even fewer black writers, so why shouldn't it be celebrated when a book has both? The presumed quality of the title wasn't even addressed. It's another small step forward for diversity in the industry, I'm pretty sure that is what the point was. Thus the use of the word 'implication'. You don't have to address something to imply it. One article I read was so outright as to state that it would be "lending an authentic voice to the black superhero’s world.". Two sides of the same coin, one is just more blatant than the other. What can I say...I don't celebrate diversity for diversity sake like you apparently do. I'd prefer to cheer someone for their merits not their sex/race/creed/etc. From what I can tell by a quick bit of research David Walker has a really good writing pedigree and that excites me. I'd rather see that talked up than the color of his skin. - Beau, Raider30 |
|
|
|
Post by theboogieman on Feb 14, 2015 10:17:22 GMT -5
What other reason? Diversity and representation in comics. There aren't many black characters and probably even fewer black writers, so why shouldn't it be celebrated when a book has both? The presumed quality of the title wasn't even addressed. It's another small step forward for diversity in the industry, I'm pretty sure that is what the point was. Thus the use of the word 'implication'. You don't have to address something to imply it. One article I read was so outright as to state that it would be "lending an authentic voice to the black superhero’s world.". Two sides of the same coin, one is just more blatant than the other. What can I say...I don't celebrate diversity for diversity sake like you apparently do. I'd prefer to cheer someone for their merits not their sex/race/creed/etc. From what I can tell by a quick bit of research David Walker has a really good writing pedigree and that excites me. I'd rather see that talked up than the color of his skin. - Beau, Raider30 I definitely see what you're trying to say here, but why not celebrate or encourage diversity in an industry where historically there hasn't been diversity? And one where the lack of diversity behind the books has been reflected in how certain people are portrayed? Especially since when people are portrayed more like how other people perceive their group to be like, rather than just people, and this actually has a wider effect on popular culture, comic book fans and the success of the industry? I'm all for cheering a character for their actual character rather than the fact they belong to a certain group, but I don't see what's wrong with cheering on diversity. I see what you mean in that really people should primarily be looked at as people rather than white people, black people, Asian people etc. But I think that maybe you're mistaking cheering on diversity and signs of progress in the comics industry with the podcasters saying, "this book was great because the people making it were from minorities". That's not to say that that would definitely be a good quality of a comic book, since most mainstream American comics historically have been made by white males, and there should be more diversity in comics. But, I think maybe you might be thinking that the podcasters are saying that the books they're talking about are great solely because they have minority characters or people from minorities creating them. By the way, an article saying, "lending an authentic voice to the black superhero's world", is not saying the book having a black creator makes it good. That's saying that because the book, which features black characters, has a black creator behind it, its portrayal of a black character would be more authentic, since the people behind the book are from that group. By saying that book adds an authentic voice to the world of black superheroes, it's not saying that the fact the book having black creators automatically adds to the quality of the book, no matter what the book's about, but what it's saying is that a book with black creators has authenticity in the way it portrays that group of people. I'm probably not making my point very well, but overall you're misinterpreting that quote you pulled, and maybe you should have a look at what that quote means, as opposed to what you think it means. This probably isn't a great example, but I'm sure there are some stories out there (not in comics) that are written and created by rich, privileged people, that feature prominent characters that are poor. Those stories may be excellent, but they wouldn't add an authentic voice to the realm of literature featuring prominent characters from poorer backgrounds in society. The people making those stories would still be an outside voice, talking about 'the other' in society. |
|
|
|
Post by angelus104 on Feb 14, 2015 10:21:38 GMT -5
Beau,
I think you are under some odd belief that you need infer an implication from what I said, when in fact I'm right here able to tell you exactly what I meant. Your idea that people should only be judged on merit is an admirable one, but that is debating from a fallacy of equality. That the people in charge of choosing the writers and artists haven't for a long time chosen to employ those that look and think like them.
Are there exceptions, of course. Is it getting better, yes. But unless you believe that for the majority of the history of comics white men have simply been better writers and artists than others, I think you would have to agree that steps need to be taken to fix the problems of the past.
I'm not trying to change your mind, but please don't put words in my, or my fellow podcasters mouths.
|
|
|
|
Post by BarefootRoot on Feb 14, 2015 11:21:51 GMT -5
On a lighter note, once again Steve (pretty sure it was Steve anyway) brings in a book I really enjoyed: cluster!
There is definitely a great story in the making here and I'm really looking forward to more.
|
|
|
|
Post by angelus104 on Feb 14, 2015 11:24:55 GMT -5
Barefoot,
I'm actually finally getting to read it right now. Really good stuff. It feels like Brisson has really found his voice as a writer.
|
|
|
|
Post by BarefootRoot on Feb 14, 2015 11:36:10 GMT -5
the cover art reminded me of old Heavy Metal art (or maybe some parts of the movie) which was pretty cool  I mentioned this in another thread but the book really gave me the feeling of being introduced to a world that has existed before I was there to witness anything... "used" space? |
|
|
|
Post by angelus104 on Feb 14, 2015 13:17:20 GMT -5
It definitely follows in that Alien or Star Wars mold of a used future. It all feels very lived in and old.
|
|
