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Post by Huw on Feb 8, 2015 7:31:07 GMT -5
Why buy extra copies of a DC book? That's simply pandering to their levels of 'commercial viability' which are clearly more demanding (and less indulgent of creativity) than companies making the gateway books for new readers. Instead of buying an extra copy of GA buy A copy of Abigail and the Snowman for a young reader and use the change to pick up a copy of The Private Eye for an older reader. If DC cancels GA it's their own stupidity, the rest of the market manages to sustain books and creators on far lower sales than GA. People are buying extra copies because they love the book and believe it has a larger meaning than it just being a comic from DC. GA has become a movement in the same way Captain and Ms Marvel have, they're beacons of hope for diversification and representation in the industry. |
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Post by bpp on Feb 8, 2015 7:56:25 GMT -5
Why buy extra copies of a DC book? That's simply pandering to their levels of 'commercial viability' which are clearly more demanding (and less indulgent of creativity) than companies making the gateway books for new readers. Instead of buying an extra copy of GA buy A copy of Abigail and the Snowman for a young reader and use the change to pick up a copy of The Private Eye for an older reader. If DC cancels GA it's their own stupidity, the rest of the market manages to sustain books and creators on far lower sales than GA. People are buying extra copies because they love the book and believe it has a larger meaning than it just being a comic from DC. GA has become a movement in the same way Captain and Ms Marvel have, they're beacons of hope for diversification and representation in the industry. That interpretation only holds credence if they are hopelessly hooked on big two product. What does 'GA has become a movement' actually MEAN? It sounds great, it reminds me of the language I hear on this show about Ms. Marvel but again I don't see what that transpires into aside from assumptions and this vague hope of Big Two readers that 'their' team is finally doing the ground work for new readers that many other companies have been doing for years. Where is the campaign for extra copies of My Little Pony, Adventure Time, Abigail and The Snowman, Mouseguard and countless other books pitched at a lower aged readership? Dont nut these comics have the SAME meaning to the industry as GA, Ms.M and Squiral Girl (is it a movement too yet btw?) i repeat - if DC cancel GA and other younger-audience (or diversity audience) books based on them not selling the units a 'regular' book does that's on them. Diverting cash from non-big two (or worse not supporting at all) is far more damaging to the industry than DC not having a teen book. |
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Post by Huw on Feb 8, 2015 8:44:39 GMT -5
People are buying extra copies because they love the book and believe it has a larger meaning than it just being a comic from DC. GA has become a movement in the same way Captain and Ms Marvel have, they're beacons of hope for diversification and representation in the industry. That interpretation only holds credence if they are hopelessly hooked on big two product. What does 'GA has become a movement' actually MEAN? It sounds great, it reminds me of the language I hear on this show about Ms. Marvel but again I don't see what that transpires into aside from assumptions and this vague hope of Big Two readers that 'their' team is finally doing the ground work for new readers that many other companies have been doing for years. Where is the campaign for extra copies of My Little Pony, Adventure Time, Abigail and The Snowman, Mouseguard and countless other books pitched at a lower aged readership? Dont nut these comics have the SAME meaning to the industry as GA, Ms.M and Squiral Girl (is it a movement too yet btw?) i repeat - if DC cancel GA and other younger-audience (or diversity audience) books based on them not selling the units a 'regular' book does that's on them. Diverting cash from non-big two (or worse not supporting at all) is far more damaging to the industry than DC not having a teen book. I see what Ms Marvel means to people and the connection it has with people first hand. There aren't many books for kids and young adults that push diversity in the way other, more adult orientated books are. Young people need a starting point in comics. I think it's worth ready the Human Rights and Representation stuff, there's a lot of stuff in there that explains why those books mean so much to people. It's about pushing diversity, on all levels, and releasing comics that appeal to everyone whilst making the industry itself more inclusive and representative across all walks of life. That's what the movement is. I disagree about DC not having a teen book being less damaging to the industry. The fact remains that for young people who are just finding their way in comics, and parents who are trying to find books for their kids to read, DC and Marvel are the most accessible to them. Long term, this is will be massively beneficial to the industry. These books could well be the gateway that see kids grow up into passionate readers who support the industry as a whole once they are able to sustain their own pull. It's up to other companies to diversify their range of titles to capitalise on this. These books are a starting point for young people to get into comics and that can only be a good thing, that's why they're important. |
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Post by Huw on Feb 8, 2015 8:44:59 GMT -5
People are buying extra copies because they love the book and believe it has a larger meaning than it just being a comic from DC. GA has become a movement in the same way Captain and Ms Marvel have, they're beacons of hope for diversification and representation in the industry. That interpretation only holds credence if they are hopelessly hooked on big two product. What does 'GA has become a movement' actually MEAN? It sounds great, it reminds me of the language I hear on this show about Ms. Marvel but again I don't see what that transpires into aside from assumptions and this vague hope of Big Two readers that 'their' team is finally doing the ground work for new readers that many other companies have been doing for years. Where is the campaign for extra copies of My Little Pony, Adventure Time, Abigail and The Snowman, Mouseguard and countless other books pitched at a lower aged readership? Dont nut these comics have the SAME meaning to the industry as GA, Ms.M and Squiral Girl (is it a movement too yet btw?) i repeat - if DC cancel GA and other younger-audience (or diversity audience) books based on them not selling the units a 'regular' book does that's on them. Diverting cash from non-big two (or worse not supporting at all) is far more damaging to the industry than DC not having a teen book. I see what Ms Marvel means to people and the connection it has with people first hand. There aren't many books for kids and young adults that push diversity in the way other, more adult orientated books are. Young people need a starting point in comics. I think it's worth ready the Human Rights and Representation stuff, there's a lot of stuff in there that explains why those books mean so much to people. It's about pushing diversity, on all levels, and releasing comics that appeal to everyone whilst making the industry itself more inclusive and representative across all walks of life. That's what the movement is. I disagree about DC not having a teen book being less damaging to the industry. The fact remains that for young people who are just finding their way in comics, and parents who are trying to find books for their kids to read, DC and Marvel are the most accessible to them. Long term, this is will be massively beneficial to the industry. These books could well be the gateway that see kids grow up into passionate readers who support the industry as a whole once they are able to sustain their own pull. It's up to other companies to diversify their range of titles to capitalise on this. These books are a starting point for young people to get into comics and that can only be a good thing, that's why they're important. |
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Post by tundra on Feb 8, 2015 12:11:14 GMT -5
These books are a starting point for young people to get into comics and that can only be a good thing, that's why they're important. Honestly, I don't think this holds anywhere near as true as we would all like it to - especially if we all take to heart the exhortation to buy single copies of these books. Anyone buying a single copy of GA, Ms Marvel, Squirrel Girl or any other big 2 book has already passed by far the biggest barrier to "getting into the hobby" which is to engage with a specialist comics retailer, whether that's a comic shop or a digital storefront like Comixology, because they simply can't buy them anywhere else. The real gateway books are the ones carried in mainstream venues - either bricks and mortar bookshops or Amazon. And at the moment, that means trades or collections. No-one with a casual interest in reading something in the comics medium will even be exposed to anything else, I'm afraid. |
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Post by bpp on Feb 8, 2015 13:01:01 GMT -5
I'd largely agree with that Tundra. With the exception of the work IDW do to get comics into other venues, especially toy stores.
I'm still not sure under what defination of Huw's 'GA' is 'a movement', simply saying it means a lot to its readers indicates ZERO. A great many comics mean a great deal to their readers, nothing special about Ms Marvel, GA or anything else in that regard. My three year old nephew adores Owly and carries his book everywhere he goes. Thats not a movement. 50 year olds will attest to having bought every issue of 2000AD since they first picked it up in their teenage years in the 1980s.. thats not a movement. 'I see what [comic book x] means to people and the connection it has with people first hand' is as standard a statement as its possible to make about comic book fans - this board has people to whom Valiant, Rat Queens, Stjepan Sejic or any number of things means just as much as Ms Marvel does to a Ms Marvel fan or GA to a GA fan.
Marvel and DC are far more problematic to the industry than they are benefical so to be ushering people into buying their gateway drugs over the reams of independent comics is inherently wrong to me. Sure buy their book if you like it (I do Silver Surfer, I will Section Eight when it arrives) but to trumph them over what the rest of the industry does, to ignore the works of the rest of the industry (with the 'oh there is only so much you can read, now.. heres the NEW Batwing book!', to advocate buying double copies of a big two book and promoting them, to afford much less coverage of alternatives then no.. to me its plain wrong. Bad choices reinforcing bad power structures in the comics field. The Bitch Planet choice is NOT to engage in this nonsense of asserting that these big two books need more support. They have plenty of support. And if that support isn't good enough for the beancounters at Huge Media Corp Inc. then those creators can go elsewhere and create books that are just as enjoyable and 'mean something' to their readers. And the comics media and comics fans can do a better job at getting the word out for them.
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Post by Huw on Feb 8, 2015 13:31:59 GMT -5
It really doesn't have that much to do with who publishes the books.
It's about what's being published and how they can benefit the industry long term and get more people reading comics. As well as that, bringing more diversity into comics at the same time.
Bitch Planet's ethos is amazing and its importance shouldn't be overlooked. But it's far from a book that a parent buying a comic for their child for the first time would buy.
The whole thing with GA is about getting the message out there to children and young adults that there's a comic, with a Harry Potter style feel, out there for them to read. It really is the type of book that will get kids into comics.
I've given copies of the first two issues for four friends with kids and they've all now gone into their LCS and set up standing orders for it. That's 9 more children reading comics for the first time. If others do that, then if some of them look for more to read, hopefully when they're at an age where they can read what Image publish, they will and even better they look to Boom! And start reading their titles.
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Post by bpp on Feb 8, 2015 13:53:37 GMT -5
I think you've misunderstood my reference to Bitch Planet.
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Post by toxicsooner on Feb 8, 2015 19:03:48 GMT -5
So here are my thoughts on this, take them for what they are.
1. I don't understand why there is this great debate on pushing or championing Gotham Academy or any other book for that matter. We all do it. I am championed and pushed Death Vigil since I read the first issue. (Seriously, if you aren't reading this book, you should it's awesome). See just did it again. Just because Stephanie and Bob choose to do it on a podcast doesn't make it any different than what we do on this forum, twitter, or discussions with friends.
2. On the topic of new readers. I really believe new readers, children or adults, are not brought in on single issues. Let's say you hand someone a single issue that is a new reader and they read it and they like it. They say this is great it's awesome, where's the next one. You well it doesn't come out for 30 more days. 30 days later new reader has a new app on their phone that is fun and they forget about the comic. If you want people to get sucked into comics hand them a trade!!!! That's the only way I got my wife to read comics. I repeatedly handed her singles of the book I knew she would like. I finally handed her the first trade of Saga and she was hooked. And yes one of the singles I tried to get her to read was Saga #1.
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Post by Tony on Feb 8, 2015 20:29:32 GMT -5
So here are my thoughts on this, take them for what they are. . . . 2. On the topic of new readers. I really believe new readers, children or adults, are not brought in on single issues. Let's say you hand someone a single issue that is a new reader and they read it and they like it. They say this is great it's awesome, where's the next one. You well it doesn't come out for 30 more days. 30 days later new reader has a new app on their phone that is fun and they forget about the comic. If you want people to get sucked into comics hand them a trade!!!! That's the only way I got my wife to read comics. I repeatedly handed her singles of the book I knew she would like. I finally handed her the first trade of Saga and she was hooked. And yes one of the singles I tried to get her to read was Saga #1. I totally agree. I've successfully gotten two people into comics in the last year, my little sister and my friend megan, and in both cases it was trades/OGNs that did it (Saga, Rat Queens, Hawkeye, Seconds), not singles. And when I hand that same sister new issues when she comes back into town (of Saga, Shutter, and Gotham Academy), she makes the same comment every time that it's not enough, and that it's better in trade (and she also never fails to mention how annoying the ads are in Gotham Academy, and "why do they have ads; the Image ones don't have ads", direct quote, and you all know how much I agree with her on that). I've also reintroduced my little brother to comics in the last year, via Batman (his favorite character by miles), and while it's very, very difficult to get him interested in the singles, month to month (sometimes it takes him weeks to get around to opening/reading a new issue, even though he loves the series), he absolutely devoured-in-no-time the Court/Night of Owls trades that I gave him for christmas. When I talk about trades and collections being the future of the medium (and, seriously, the future is now, people), i'm not talking out of my ass. Even when I was less into comics in the late-90s and into the 2000s (after having been super into them as a kid), reading very, very casually and never going into shops, the way that I kept them in my life was by picking up the odd graphic novel or two at Borders and Barnes & Noble now and again; Long Halloween, Sin City, V-for-Vendetta . . grabbing and reading trades casually and at non-comic stores is what kept comics in my life for over 15 years while I wasn't feeling the comic-shop/singles scene. Singles are what they are; they're good for putting up on the wall, assuming it's a good cover and assuming you like the issue after you've read it (which is certainly not guaranteed), and there are certainly many series' that I like digesting chapter-to-chapter, but it's a mode that's going the way of the dodo, and that's not a bad thing. |
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Post by toxicsooner on Feb 8, 2015 21:45:46 GMT -5
Tony,
While I agree many books do read better collected rather than month to month, but I'm not sure single issues are going anywhere soon and that I would want them too. I still enjoy going to my local comic shop and picking up my pull every Wednesday. I do believe Marvel and DC wil have to adjust their business model to take into account trades and digital sales as viable mediums for their product. And, that if they are smart they will take the initiative to use these medium to introduce new readers and grow the industry.
As for the ads in books, I guess I don't get as hung up on it as most. I compare it somewhat to sports teams and how they conduct business. You go to a game and there are advertisments and signs everywhere. It really has no affect on my enjoyment of the game, unlike TV where it interupts the flow of the show I'm watching.
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Post by Tony on Feb 8, 2015 22:44:16 GMT -5
Tony, While I agree many books do read better collected rather than month to month, but I'm not sure single issues are going anywhere soon and that I would want them too. I still enjoy going to my local comic shop and picking up my pull every Wednesday. I do believe Marvel and DC wil have to adjust their business model to take into account trades and digital sales as viable mediums for their product. And, that if they are smart they will take the initiative to use these medium to introduce new readers and grow the industry. Yeah I read a bunch of books in singles, too, and like you I love going to the shop on tuesday nights and then the next day to pick 'em up and chat up my friends and such, but still, I'd wager that long-term it's a thing that will continue to decline in sales and popularity relative to the other sorts of ways one can read/take-in a comic book. As for the ads in books, I guess I don't get as hung up on it as most. I compare it somewhat to sports teams and how they conduct business. You go to a game and there are advertisments and signs everywhere. It really has no affect on my enjoyment of the game, unlike TV where it interupts the flow of the show I'm watching. To each their own, of course, but to me there's absolutely no difference. Ad pages serve as the exact same sort of interruption as tv commercials, to me; they never fail to take me right out of what i'm reading in a totally obnoxious way. |
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Post by BarefootRoot on Feb 9, 2015 8:17:13 GMT -5
ads: the only time they bug me is when marvel sticks on in there that is 2-3 pages long  there were ads when I was a teenager so I don't really have a beef with them now except that I get books without ads that are cheaper than the marvel titles. image books for $3 with no ads > marvel books at $4 with ads. since we've all been debating the whole gotham academy/ms marvel/the movement thing for a while now I've been thinking a lot about what everyone has been saying and I think I have it figured out, at least from where I stand. I don't think I would talk about either book as a "movement" or as a big generation-defining thing (at least not at this point in history). I also don't think these books appeal to as many people as we would like to think they do (I may be wrong, of course). I also think adding diversity for diversity's sake will always come off as phony (at least to me) and a quality book is a quality book regardless of race/sexual preference/gender identity/whatever (I'm looking at you, Saga, you wonderful thing). HOWEVER, I will agree that these books are important to comics culture as a whole and I will tell you why I think so. In particular, looking at GA and MS Marvel what we wind up with are books that star teenagers, written with a teenage sensibility. This has something I have felt has been lacking in the industry as a whole. When I got into comics back in the early 90s pretty much all the mainstream super hero titles, and this is just my observation, seemed to be written with a younger sensibility compared to what I see today. I've brought it up elsewhere, but recently we've seen wolverine kill his own son, a group of x-men become an assassination team (and killing children), we've seen a bunch of various spider-folk get (sometimes brutally) murdered in spider-verse, and many other examples I've read over the last year but don't have off the top of my head. These are the kinds of things that would not have happened "back in the day", and I feel these themes make for great stories for people like me who are older and are looking for stories where there are difficult decisions and consequences for characters actions. Should a 13 year old who loves wolverine be reading a book where he murders his son in cold blood though? SO to bring it back to my actual point, mainstream comics seem to have skewed older as time has gone by which has, in my opinion, left a void in the 10-16 year old range and even though I personally don't care for the books, gotham academy and ms marvel are written for that demographic. if we, as a community, want kids to grow up enjoying comics they need comics to read at each stage of their lives. Lumberjanes is great for my 7 year old, and she will probably enjoy it for a couple years, but once she gets a little older she will probably want something different and as a parent I don't really think she should have to jump to reading about the differing political factions within the X-Men and who is sleeping with who... you know, more older teenager/adult topics. way back comics were aimed directly at young kids, in the 60s they were re-aimed at teenagers, and now we find them largely aimed at adults. if we want people to continue buying and making comics after we are gone there needs to be books for everyone. as Toxicsooner said, we all champion the books we love; most of us just don't have our own podcast to shout from the rooftops or see the big picture the same way. From where I stand, after (obviously) overthinking the issue, I think these kids of books should be promoted more simply so they are still around in 3-4 years when my daughter is old enough to "get" them. that might be reason enough to try to help these books succeed. now if they were actually bad books, that would be a different story (PS Sorry for being so long winded on a topic we have kind of beaten to death already) |
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Post by battyfordc on Feb 10, 2015 19:08:18 GMT -5
I keep hearing about how books getting canceled due to low sales is cause of trade waiters which annoys me I read almost exclusively in trades I have a few titles I pick up monthy but I'd say 70% to 80% of my comic reading which amounts to about 10 to 15 trades a month easy so I'm not a light reader I do this cause I find it a far more enjoyable way to read my comics and I don't think its up to us to change but for the big 2 to start to realise this is becoming more and more the norm and for them to find a way to take this into consideration when calculating a books viability. I've been reading comics for a good decade and a half and I just don't find single issues as enjoyable to read anymore.
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Post by henrythemorerecent on Feb 10, 2015 20:25:50 GMT -5
ads: the only time they bug me is when marvel sticks on in there that is 2-3 pages long there were ads when I was a teenager so I don't really have a beef with them now except that I get books without ads that are cheaper than the marvel titles. image books for $3 with no ads > marvel books at $4 with ads. since we've all been debating the whole gotham academy/ms marvel/the movement thing for a while now I've been thinking a lot about what everyone has been saying and I think I have it figured out, at least from where I stand. I don't think I would talk about either book as a "movement" or as a big generation-defining thing (at least not at this point in history). I also don't think these books appeal to as many people as we would like to think they do (I may be wrong, of course). I also think adding diversity for diversity's sake will always come off as phony (at least to me) and a quality book is a quality book regardless of race/sexual preference/gender identity/whatever (I'm looking at you, Saga, you wonderful thing). HOWEVER, I will agree that these books are important to comics culture as a whole and I will tell you why I think so. In particular, looking at GA and MS Marvel what we wind up with are books that star teenagers, written with a teenage sensibility. This has something I have felt has been lacking in the industry as a whole. When I got into comics back in the early 90s pretty much all the mainstream super hero titles, and this is just my observation, seemed to be written with a younger sensibility compared to what I see today. I've brought it up elsewhere, but recently we've seen wolverine kill his own son, a group of x-men become an assassination team (and killing children), we've seen a bunch of various spider-folk get (sometimes brutally) murdered in spider-verse, and many other examples I've read over the last year but don't have off the top of my head. These are the kinds of things that would not have happened "back in the day", and I feel these themes make for great stories for people like me who are older and are looking for stories where there are difficult decisions and consequences for characters actions. Should a 13 year old who loves wolverine be reading a book where he murders his son in cold blood though? SO to bring it back to my actual point, mainstream comics seem to have skewed older as time has gone by which has, in my opinion, left a void in the 10-16 year old range and even though I personally don't care for the books, gotham academy and ms marvel are written for that demographic. if we, as a community, want kids to grow up enjoying comics they need comics to read at each stage of their lives. Lumberjanes is great for my 7 year old, and she will probably enjoy it for a couple years, but once she gets a little older she will probably want something different and as a parent I don't really think she should have to jump to reading about the differing political factions within the X-Men and who is sleeping with who... you know, more older teenager/adult topics. way back comics were aimed directly at young kids, in the 60s they were re-aimed at teenagers, and now we find them largely aimed at adults. if we want people to continue buying and making comics after we are gone there needs to be books for everyone. as Toxicsooner said, we all champion the books we love; most of us just don't have our own podcast to shout from the rooftops or see the big picture the same way. From where I stand, after (obviously) overthinking the issue, I think these kids of books should be promoted more simply so they are still around in 3-4 years when my daughter is old enough to "get" them. that might be reason enough to try to help these books succeed. now if they were actually bad books, that would be a different story (PS Sorry for being so long winded on a topic we have kind of beaten to death already) This has been such an interesting discussion to read as its a topic thats been bugging me for a while. I think a big part of who comics are targetted at is time. Times change. What was acceptable, praised and promoted now was considered taboo and not right back in "the day". Can you imagine if 2 gay X-Men got married in a comic in the 60's? It wouldn't happen. But times change. Peoples sensitivity changes, world events change. And there weren't a million forums with a million readers arguing about diversity in comics. There were readers that wrote in occasionally to the team. Nowadays comics are a popular, multi-million and billion dollar franchise making product. So I don't think comics have changed their target audience, I just think time has changed. Back then comics were mainly written to be comics. Not pieces of literature. That came later. Now there are specific comics for specific audiences. We can't blame an industry for not instantly bowing to every change of opinion and ideal posted online. Since the 80's when everything went "dark", it was a change people welcomed and one of the most innovative changes in comics. Its what people wanted. And they got it. But we still see them changing. Look at the comics on the shelves that everyone is talking about: Ms Marvel, Captain Marvel, Saga, Seconds, Lumberjanes, Batgirl, Gotham Academy, Bitch Planet, Black Widow, Fatale, Lazarus etc etc. Thats just recently. Go back further, Y: The Last Man, Brubaker's Catwoman, Ghost World, Blankets, Tank Girl, Gotham Central, Batwoman. Change has already been happening. But its this "instant everything" attitude that makes the readers say "NOW NOW NOW!" And yes there are still problems in comics, but there is still a whole lot more wrong with the world. Kelly Sue's Captain Marvel started 3 years ago. Superhero movies have only really REALLY taken off as a big deal over the last 7 or so years since Dark Knight and Iron Man. And in 7 years the comic industry and comic book movie industry has spewed out everything everyone has demanded. And now they're making a Captain Marvel movie. 3 years is not a long time at all. Talking Comics has only been around roughly that long. And now Black Panther is being made too. An Israeli actress has been cast as Wonder Woman. I still don't understand why people aren't crazy happy about that, despite the quality of the movie. They didn't pick the standard Adrian Palicki "how much cleavage can we show in everything" American actress they always do for these movies (Black Widow included). And yet what did most people complain about? "She's too skinny". You can't give fans what they want. And when you do, they change their mind. I've never met more impatient and angry people in my life than I have since I started reading comics (Sorry, I don't mean to direct that sentence to anyone here, just in general) Because all I see is progress. Nothing is getting worse, its only getting better. Just apparently never fast enough. And as a side note, the topic of kids reading comics: When I was a kid, before I got into reading comics as a hobby, the first comics I read were The Killing Joke, Chuck Dixon's Robin, The Phantom... Killing Joke especially not great for kids. But I was a kid. I saw Batman. In Chuck Dixon's Robin it dealt with teenager problems, divorced parents, death, teenage pregnancy. But I just saw Robin. The Phantom was politics, piracy, murder, family. Again, all I saw was The Phantom. Kids don't read for quality and topical references, they just want to have fun, and that splash page. I remember thinking back to an X-Men run I LOVED as a kid. Went back and read it last year and it sucked. It sucked alot. But I look back on it fondly. I have been trying to force so many of my family and friends kids to read comics, and sure they get given it and lose their mind. 10 minutes later they're outside or watching TV or crying or something. Its only when you're older that you give a crap about quality and representation. I give a 7 year old Miles Morales every month. He doesn't know the plot or storyling, he just stares in amazement at the swinging or fight scenes. |
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there were ads when I was a teenager so I don't really have a beef with them now except that I get books without ads that are cheaper than the marvel titles. image books for $3 with no ads > marvel books at $4 with ads.