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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 24, 2014 16:21:57 GMT -5
Hi, Bob! Really enjoyed this week's podcast. I have a 2-year-old daughter and we are expecting another girl in August, so I really appreciated you spearheading the discussion this week on female depictions and bullying. Until recently, I hadn't been reading many Marvel books, but I have really been enjoying many of the new female-led books, specifically Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and Black Widow. Is this the first time you can remember having so many female-led books come out around the same time, or have there been similar attempts before? Will, Thanks for the kind words about our humble efforts! As to your question, I can't recall a similar launch, excepting things such as DC's "GirlFrenzy" one-shot releases in the late 90s, and Marvel's "Women of Marvel" celebratory minis and single issues in 2010. Now that I type that, I nearly forgot the attempt Marvel made in 1972, when they released three female-led books in an attempt to create product specifically for a female audience both young and old. None of these were very successful in their time, but all three characters continue to be a part of the modern Marvel Universe. They were: THE CAT
Created by Stan Lee & Marie Severin
Writer: Linda Fite Artist (#1 issue): Marie Severin Inker (#1 issue): Wally Wood
SHANNA THE SHE-DEVIL
Created by Carol Seuling & George Tuska
Writer: Carol Seuling; Steve Gerber Artist: George Tuska Cover: Jim Steranko
NIGHT NURSE
Created by Jean Thomas and Winslow Mortimer
Writer: Jean Thomas Artist: Winslow Mortimer
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 15:03:25 GMT -5
I just want to move the links to some fabulous articles on the subject of objectifying images and what-not over here, so as to have it become the sole focus of the Podcast thread. There is fabulous stuff here, with lots of great information, opinions, and new ideas, and some humour, too! Also, let's keep it clean: no rabbit punching or hitting on the clinches, and certainly no direct citing of creators, please! Male superheroes in female poses
Male superheroes see how the other side lives
She has no head! No, it's not equal
The big sexy problem about superheroines...
Marjorie Liu: Women. Comics. Some Thoughts
Lady She-Woman: Female superhero code names and identity
Gail Simone, Kelly Sue DeConnick and more talk strong female characters at WonderCon
For a perfect coda, that last piece features these quotes from Wonder Woman artist Cliff Chiang, first about creating covers for the Amazon Princess... “She can be in trouble, but she doesn’t need to be completely out of control,” he continues, “I try to make sure agency isn’t taken away from her… I want her to be powerful on these covers."...then in answer to a follow-up question about artists and their responsibility: “It’s not like when I’m drawing [that] my hand slips and suddenly it’s sexy.” He continued, “These are conscious decisions someone is making, and there are many of them. It doesn’t accidentally happen. As creators, it’s important for us to reign that in.”
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Post by wjohnson22 on Apr 25, 2014 15:46:34 GMT -5
Bob, I knew you'd provide an excellent response, and yet you continue to set the bar higher. Thanks for the links and info. And now I'm off on a search for more Night Nurse... (my wife still watches Grey's Anatomy so maybe this is the comic that will finally get her to start reading!).
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 15:52:36 GMT -5
Bob, I knew you'd provide an excellent response, and yet you continue to set the bar higher. Thanks for the links and info. And now I'm off on a search for more Night Nurse... (my wife still watches Grey's Anatomy so maybe this is the comic that will finally get her to start reading!). Will, Thanks so much! They were all good books, but they just didn't catch on well enough. Beyond the usual sad reasons you'd expect for that, Marvel was just about to pass DC in sales at that point, so their marketplace domination wasn't there yet.
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Post by Mighty Milton on Apr 25, 2014 17:34:42 GMT -5
Since were on the subject, I seriously believe someone is owed an apology for Emma Frost. I mean....really guys?!
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Post by theboogieman on Apr 25, 2014 17:53:01 GMT -5
Hi Bob, I'm kind of a new listener, since I got into the show maybe a month ago I think, and I really like it, and look forward to listening to each show. I was wondering, if I wanted to send you guys a question for the show, where would I send it?
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robinnight
Fearless Defender
Batman needs a Robin because he's THE GODDAMN BATMAN
Posts: 19
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Post by robinnight on Apr 25, 2014 18:16:57 GMT -5
Hey uncle Bob. What are the must read X men titles at the moment for you
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Post by wylietimes on Apr 25, 2014 18:28:06 GMT -5
Hey Bob, have you read Valiant Comics Harbinger? It reminds me of the New52 situation where fans were upset when they slimmed down the Wall.
In classic 90's Valiant Faith Herbert was a main Harbinger character who was a heavyset comic book fan. At the relaunch they acknowledged body diversity unlike the Wall situation by again making her a large and might I add powerful female character who is the heart of the team in that book.
If you haven't checked the new series I cannotrecommend it highly enough as one of the best books on the market period.
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Post by tomoe on Apr 25, 2014 19:45:20 GMT -5
Bob, in the podcast thread you asked (okay, probably rhetorically) if there was any "dramatic reasoning" for Wonder Platinum's pose. It took me a while, but I believe I've figured it out. Clearly she was the first to attack the villain (or was attacked) and got immediately knocked to the ground. She's a little dazed from the blow and is rather inelegantly attempting to get back to her feet and rejoin the fight while Cyborg and the rest of her teammates leap to her defense. It could be an attempt to show the level of threat the villain poses in that he managed to get the drop on Wonder Platinum, the warrior of the team (rather than a subtle reinforcement of the weakness and general ineptitude of the female team member). I'm basing this just on the cover, so you'll have to tell me if this matches the actual story.
I just thought the Batman and Wonder Woman cover was creepy (sorry, I'm not an artist, I can't think of a more erudite description). While "creepy" can certainly work for Batman, it is not an adjective I associate with Wonder Woman. If part of the cover's purpose is to entice new readers, then it missed the mark for me. While I might have picked up the book because Wonder Woman appears in a starring role, the cover is disturbing enough to give me pause. Was the story any good?
Teen Titans. You know, I could do a whole blog entry on Teen Titans. I am a long-time Teen Titans fan. New Teen Titans #27 was the second book I ever bought. I loved Marv Wolfman and George Perez's run on the title and I enjoyed many of the other incarnations of the team. I really tried to like the New 52 version but ended up dropping the book, deciding to wait until a new creative team came onboard before trying it again. Then I saw the cover for the relaunch (before Janelle Asselin's CBR post). I took one look, rolled my eyes and knew that unless the reviews were great I wasn't going to be reading this version of the team either. The thesis of Janelle Asselin's CBR post was "The cover to the new "Teen Titans" #1, released earlier this week, is not just a terrible comics cover, it's a prime example of how even the most corporate comic book companies can make basic mistakes regarding the potential audience for a book." The potential audience she's talking about is teenagers, particularly girls, between the ages of 15 and 23, and she claims that the cover not only won't attract new readers in this demographic, but may actually repel them. I may not be a teenaged girl and I may not have the expertise required to declare a cover "terrible", but I do know that the cover had a negative impact on me that was enough to convince me to not buy the book without some external assurance that the cover doesn't reflect the story and that the story is worth me spending my time and money on it.
So, yeah, my take on the covers you mentioned.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 22:08:20 GMT -5
Hi Bob, I'm kind of a new listener, since I got into the show maybe a month ago I think, and I really like it, and look forward to listening to each show. I was wondering, if I wanted to send you guys a question for the show, where would I send it? First off, welcome to the Forums! As to your question (I hope you don't mind informality) "B", there is a separate thread for "Listener Questions" nested in the "Talking Comics" area of the "Podcast" section, as there also is for "The Missfits" and "Talking Games". You can also send questions to info@talkingcomicbooks.com if you so choose!
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 22:15:11 GMT -5
Hey uncle Bob. What are the must read X men titles at the moment for you First off "Robin", welcome to the Forum! I've been off the "X" train for many years, having jumped ship when Chris Claremont left in the Nineties (not counting X-Men: The Hidden Years by John Byrne), although I've sampled books in the years since. I'm still off of the main "X-books", but at present, I did pick up Mr. Claremont's new Nightcrawler which was very good, and I'm stiill buying Peter David's X-Factor, which after a slow start is really starting to pick up momentum and "sound" like a PAD book!
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 22:23:28 GMT -5
Hey Bob, have you read Valiant Comics Harbinger? It reminds me of the New52 situation where fans were upset when they slimmed down the Wall. In classic 90's Valiant Faith Herbert was a main Harbinger character who was a heavyset comic book fan. At the relaunch they acknowledged body diversity unlike the Wall situation by again making her a large and might I add powerful female character who is the heart of the team in that book. If you haven't checked the new series I cannotrecommend it highly enough as one of the best books on the market period. Bobby, That's a check in the "win" column for the good folks at Valiant! We have quite a few listeners who agree with you, and who have been saying great things about the new Valiant, and Adam Shaw, one of our main contributors, has been the point man for that! Check out his by-lines on our Talking Comics site! Sad to say, I haven't dipped my toe into the Valiant pool yet, but you folks might be wearing my resistence down!
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 22:58:16 GMT -5
Bob, in the podcast thread you asked (okay, probably rhetorically) if there was any "dramatic reasoning" for Wonder Platinum's pose. It took me a while, but I believe I've figured it out. Clearly she was the first to attack the villain (or was attacked) and got immediately knocked to the ground. She's a little dazed from the blow and is rather inelegantly attempting to get back to her feet and rejoin the fight while Cyborg and the rest of her teammates leap to her defense. It could be an attempt to show the level of threat the villain poses in that he managed to get the drop on Wonder Platinum, the warrior of the team (rather than a subtle reinforcement of the weakness and general ineptitude of the female team member). I'm basing this just on the cover, so you'll have to tell me if this matches the actual story. I just thought the Batman and Wonder Woman cover was creepy (sorry, I'm not an artist, I can't think of a more erudite description). While "creepy" can certainly work for Batman, it is not an adjective I associate with Wonder Woman. If part of the cover's purpose is to entice new readers, then it missed the mark for me. While I might have picked up the book because Wonder Woman appears in a starring role, the cover is disturbing enough to give me pause. Was the story any good? Teen Titans. You know, I could do a whole blog entry on Teen Titans. I am a long-time Teen Titans fan. New Teen Titans #27 was the second book I ever bought. I loved Marv Wolfman and George Perez's run on the title and I enjoyed many of the other incarnations of the team. I really tried to like the New 52 version but ended up dropping the book, deciding to wait until a new creative team came onboard before trying it again. Then I saw the cover for the relaunch (before Janelle Asselin's CBR post). I took one look, rolled my eyes and knew that unless the reviews were great I wasn't going to be reading this version of the team either. The thesis of Janelle Asselin's CBR post was "The cover to the new "Teen Titans" #1, released earlier this week, is not just a terrible comics cover, it's a prime example of how even the most corporate comic book companies can make basic mistakes regarding the potential audience for a book." The potential audience she's talking about is teenagers, particularly girls, between the ages of 15 and 23, and she claims that the cover not only won't attract new readers in this demographic, but may actually repel them. I may not be a teenaged girl and I may not have the expertise required to declare a cover "terrible", but I do know that the cover had a negative impact on me that was enough to convince me to not buy the book without some external assurance that the cover doesn't reflect the story and that the story is worth me spending my time and money on it. So, yeah, my take on the covers you mentioned. Mo, Thanks for the thoughtful analysis; it's exactly the sort of measured, positive "negative" I was sure we would be getting! I only speed-read the Batman & Wonder Woman issue during the show, and I must say that the interior art is quite nice, and the story seemed OK at a quick glance. You might even find it a good read. That said, I've chosen not to support Worlds' Finest with my purchases due to art issues, despite it featuring two of my favorite characters in what had been a great story by veteran creator Paul Levitz. The point Ms. Asselin made about losing a potential audience is one of the things that I've been on about with this problem since I first came on the show many months ago. With so much progress being made, we as consumers have to continue to make good choices, and to make our feelings known to the powers-that-be (in a respectful way, of course!) about those things that are troubling, whether by actual communication or through our purchasing power. As to the Justice League cover, that is as far as I got into the book, excepting a cursory look that showed not as much Metal Men as I would have liked, particularly off of the last issue, where-in they had been handled quite well. Your scenario would put Tina into that position, but couldn't that struggle just have easily left her facing the action, with her right shoulder toward us in a three-quarter/profile pose that would be much less troublesome...particularly to these old eyes?
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Post by Bob Reyer on Apr 25, 2014 23:05:51 GMT -5
Since were on the subject, I seriously believe someone is owed an apology for Emma Frost. I mean....really guys?! Is this a general complaint, or are we referring to her outfit that seemed like part of it was purchased from the "Incontinence" aisle at the drug-store?
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Post by tomoe on Apr 25, 2014 23:34:27 GMT -5
. Your scenario would put Tina into that position, but couldn't that struggle just have easily left her facing the action, with her right shoulder toward us in a three-quarter/profile pose that would be much less troublesome...particularly to these old eyes?Hey, I'm not saying it's a great reason. You just asked for any dramatic reason.
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