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Post by iamasianbatgirl on Oct 24, 2014 22:52:34 GMT -5
Just adding my two cents here, as rgsc said above, the guy talking in hashtags was the villain who embodies all that is awful about the internet. Whilst I completely understand people saying that this book is not their thing, I think it is misleading to say that 'this book is not aimed at me'. Batgirl is aimed at everyone, and the lighter tone and art reflects a change in the mood of the story, not the audience. So I guess what I am trying to say is that something can be not your cup of tea, but still aimed at you. I get what you're trying to say but I think Batgirl #35 is mostly aimed for a younger Interwebs generation and perhaps young women in particular (although Brenden and Cameron have talked about writing a story they themselves would love to read). However I also believe that this book deserves a little breathing room for it to really shine as an all-around accessible title. I'm sure the stark change rattled a lot of loyal Babs fans but I have faith that we'll see bits of other aspects from previous incarnations shine through. This issue was great for getting new readers on board, especially new Marvel fans who got into comics through Ms. Marvel/Spider-Gwen/Hawkeye/Black Widow etc. It's a fairly new market that is being explored and DC has every right to go down that avenue especially since New 52 should be getting those readers with the rebooted universe. I think it would be erroneous of us in the assumed targeted group to presume that this new direction is aimed at everyone when it isn't or rather, when it doesn't come off as such. Like Simone's run, this one will be a hit or miss for readers all around. I do however, hope that people will give this a second read/chance as soon as other issues are released.
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Post by comicsexual on Oct 30, 2014 22:03:10 GMT -5
About the whole "not being aimed at me/target audience" thing...
That should be irrelevant, no? I'm 32 and don't "identify" with the generation that was predominantly portrayed in this book. Did that stop me from enjoying it? No. The art was great, the writing was fun and had great pacing, and most importantly from a first issue/reboot of sorts, it left me wanting more...immediately. I've read the book twice now and may do a third before #36 comes out. My expectations were not only met, but exceeded.
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Post by wylietimes on Nov 9, 2014 20:12:51 GMT -5
Little late to the party as I just read the book but absolutely loved the issue. It was fun, had action and I thought it was a great change of pace.
Art-wise, I really loved the cover and enjoyed Babs Tar's interiors. I want to come back for more bit with my budget I will likely buy in trades.
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matt
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 75
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Post by matt on Dec 10, 2014 16:54:43 GMT -5
No Issue has blown me away yet but I think its readable so i'm going to keep going with it. That being said, i really didn't enjoy #37. I think its the worst issue so far, but Babs Tarr is still killing it.
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Post by rgsc on Dec 11, 2014 8:33:07 GMT -5
For some reason I am not able to log into the main TC site to leave a comment on megamaramon 's review so I guess I'll post it here and see if I can get that sorted out. I was a bit surprised by how highly you rated it, Mara. I agree that the part in the art gallery was excellent - and provided some excellent commentary on representation as well as adding to the mystery of who knows Bab's identity and her history, in addition to providing a really affecting image - but, overall, I found the story telling was no where as strong as the previous two issues (which I loved). The art remained amazing but overall this issue fell a little flat for me. Hopefully it is just a blip and things pick up again in 38. Something that has been bothering me since I read the issue, though, was the identity of the sparkly imposter. I was left to wonder what the larger purpose of Dagger Type being exposed as the GlamFauxBatgirl. Was it a simple "surprise! you would never have guessed it to be a man!"? For a series that introduced a strong, non-stereotypical trans* character (who shows up in this issue) and where there seems to be an awareness of the importance of gender identities, I found it to be a strange choice to employ the villain as "creepy crossdresser" trope. While it is in a rather different context than that of Boxtrolls, where the trope and its problematic nature have recently been discussed (whether or not you concur with the argument that the film is transphobic or not is an entirely different discussion and I certainly am not suggesting that this comic is)I still found it concerning that this reveal was used to for shock value and/or for laughs, particularly for a (likely) one-and-done baddy who we will never see again.
What do others think? Am I completely off-base here?
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Post by angelcakes83 on Dec 13, 2014 1:12:29 GMT -5
For some reason I am not able to log into the main TC site to leave a comment on megamaramon 's review so I guess I'll post it here and see if I can get that sorted out. I was a bit surprised by how highly you rated it, Mara. I agree that the part in the art gallery was excellent - and provided some excellent commentary on representation as well as adding to the mystery of who knows Bab's identity and her history, in addition to providing a really affecting image - but, overall, I found the story telling was no where as strong as the previous two issues (which I loved). The art remained amazing but overall this issue fell a little flat for me. Hopefully it is just a blip and things pick up again in 38. Something that has been bothering me since I read the issue, though, was the identity of the sparkly imposter. I was left to wonder what the larger purpose of Dagger Type being exposed as the GlamFauxBatgirl. Was it a simple "surprise! you would never have guessed it to be a man!"? For a series that introduced a strong, non-stereotypical trans* character (who shows up in this issue) and where there seems to be an awareness of the importance of gender identities, I found it to be a strange choice to employ the villain as "creepy crossdresser" trope. While it is in a rather different context than that of Boxtrolls, where the trope and its problematic nature have recently been discussed (whether or not you concur with the argument that the film is transphobic or not is an entirely different discussion and I certainly am not suggesting that this comic is)I still found it concerning that this reveal was used to for shock value and/or for laughs, particularly for a (likely) one-and-done baddy who we will never see again.
What do others think? Am I completely off-base here? I was so glad you brought that up, rgsc, because that was REALLY bothering me as well. I mean, for a book that seems to want to be inclusive, representative, and fair, the... well, I'm going to use the spoiler tag here: The idea that our fake-Batgirl is trans seems to be played for shock value and laughs. It almost feels like Batgirl thinks she's fallen for a "trap," to use a horrid word. Babs pulls off the cowl to reveal--SHOCKER--a man, and she reacts in shock at his man-ness. Dagger/FakeBatgirl goes on to her show, where she's booed off the stage for being inauthentic. This is coupled with her complete wackiness: mascara running like Tim Curry at the end of Rocky Horror, pulling a gun on people... I felt icky reading it. While the whole comic is about identity: Babs worrying about her own, crafting her own, having her identity stolen... Dagger's struggle for identity is mocked. She's not a real BatGIRL, therefore she's inauthentic, and crazy to boot. Dagger is practically asking Batgirl to put the lotion on its skin. (See Silence of the Lambs for one of the worst portrayals of a trans person.) For a book that seems to want to be inclusive, like I began with, it seems to say "But not you, trans people. Cisgender only."
How much better would it have been if Babs had not reacted in surprise (I mean, she lives in Gotham. She's really shocked by this?)? If they had really talked about identity, and if Babs had tried to reach out to her. If Babs had tried to talk about forming one's own identity in a positive way. And if Dagger had shown a glimmer that she might be convinced. Instead, we get Babs only concerned about her own identity and completely dismissing the other as a fake. The last page is supposed to be empowering, as Barbara has her picture taken over Burnside, but it sort of comes off as, "Look at me, the real Batgirl, a heterosexual cisgender woman!" Those are my thoughts on Batgirl 37. Otherwise, I've been really enjoying the series. I actually started at 35, and I love the aesthetic, the portrayals, and I can really relate to Barbara, being a grad student myself. I hope this is one misstep in an otherwise good series.
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matt
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 75
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Post by matt on Dec 14, 2014 13:18:19 GMT -5
Not sure if anyone saw this but the Batgirl teamed apologized to anyone who got upset over the ending of #32. It's seems pretty sincere, what do you guys think?
/photo/1
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Post by obiren13 on Dec 14, 2014 14:43:14 GMT -5
I read the comic, and agree that the reveal was a bit awkward. I got into contact with *redacted reveal* and they were offended.
The apology looks very thoughtful and genuine, and my friends agree and will go forth with more caution.
As we are getting to know the variety of our friends, their beliefs and who they are, I can only say for myself, there are times that I have to consult my friends and get more informed on what's ok and what's not ok.
If it shows anything, we need more people like the ones in this book, in the industry, To show us the way.
I will continue to buy this book.
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Post by angelcakes83 on Dec 14, 2014 15:37:42 GMT -5
Not sure if anyone saw this but the Batgirl teamed apologized to anyone who got upset over the ending of #32. It's seems pretty sincere, what do you guys think?
/photo/1Thanks, matt, for posting this. I'm definitely glad that they're not taking the defensive, as so many people do (it's still my knee-jerk reaction), but that they're using this as a learning opportunity and a time for reflection. That's what it's all about: expanding and questioning our own viewpoints to be inclusive and not exclusive. By the way, I just went through my hooding ceremony for a PhD. I hope someday Barbara will be able to do the same. Wait... is she getting her Master's or her doctorate? Did I completely miss out on what type of degree she's going for?
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matt
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 75
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Post by matt on Dec 14, 2014 18:18:50 GMT -5
Not sure if anyone saw this but the Batgirl teamed apologized to anyone who got upset over the ending of #32. It's seems pretty sincere, what do you guys think?
/photo/1Thanks, matt, for posting this. I'm definitely glad that they're not taking the defensive, as so many people do (it's still my knee-jerk reaction), but that they're using this as a learning opportunity and a time for reflection. That's what it's all about: expanding and questioning our own viewpoints to be inclusive and not exclusive. By the way, I just went through my hooding ceremony for a PhD. I hope someday Barbara will be able to do the same. Wait... is she getting her Master's or her doctorate? Did I completely miss out on what type of degree she's going for? I think she's getting her masters, but good for you!
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Post by pacino on Dec 15, 2014 8:17:12 GMT -5
A man posing as Batgirl IS shocking. We have 50 years of stories showing us that Batgirl is a girl. A shock doesn't mean disgust, necessarily.
Someone not 100% straight can certainly be villainous; I've gotten tired of some writers making sure they never diversify their rogue's gallery lest they offend someone. We need to be OK with seeing all people as heroes, villains, bystanders, etc. Show the spectrum.
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Post by rgsc on Dec 15, 2014 12:49:37 GMT -5
Not sure if anyone saw this but the Batgirl teamed apologized to anyone who got upset over the ending of #32. It's seems pretty sincere, what do you guys think?
/photo/1Thanks, matt, for posting this. I'm definitely glad that they're not taking the defensive, as so many people do (it's still my knee-jerk reaction), but that they're using this as a learning opportunity and a time for reflection. That's what it's all about: expanding and questioning our own viewpoints to be inclusive and not exclusive. By the way, I just went through my hooding ceremony for a PhD. I hope someday Barbara will be able to do the same. Wait... is she getting her Master's or her doctorate? Did I completely miss out on what type of degree she's going for? I saw the apology shortly after it was posted but wasn't able to post it here at the time, so thanks Matt. I definitely think the apology was sincere and heartfelt. They had no intention to cause hurt but recognize that they did and aim to learn from this. Really, one can't ask for any more from the creative team. Congratulations Angelcakes83!
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Post by rgsc on Dec 15, 2014 12:56:48 GMT -5
A man posing as Batgirl IS shocking. We have 50 years of stories showing us that Batgirl is a girl. A shock doesn't mean disgust, necessarily. Someone not 100% straight can certainly be villainous; I've gotten tired of some writers making sure they never diversify their rogue's gallery lest they offend someone. We need to be OK with seeing all people as heroes, villains, bystanders, etc. Show the spectrum. I agree with your point about showing the spectrum of humanity in both heroes & villains but that is part of the problem here - the reveal of DT as a man (& one who is then shown to become increasingly unhinged) falls into trope territory. We rarely see trans* and/or crossdressing characters as anything other than duplicitous villains. Really, we very rarely see these characters represented at all - good, bad, or otherwise. So, by portraying the villain this way, compounded by the reaction of Babs and, later, the crowd, it plays into this harmful representation.
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Post by Simon on Dec 16, 2014 19:48:56 GMT -5
I don't think the character was supposed to be a trans woman (is this the right phrasing?). He genders himself as a man throughout the issue, which I thought was not what a proper trans woman would do?
I saw him more as a Dee Snider, a person dressing like that for shock and fame, rather than actual gender issues.
If any of this is wrong or offensive tell me, I'm not going to pretend I know anything about this.
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Post by rgsc on Dec 18, 2014 10:20:58 GMT -5
I don't think the character was supposed to be a trans woman (is this the right phrasing?). He genders himself as a man throughout the issue, which I thought was not what a proper trans woman would do? I saw him more as a Dee Snider, a person dressing like that for shock and fame, rather than actual gender issues. If any of this is wrong or offensive tell me, I'm not going to pretend I know anything about this. You are correct and I think that is very likely what the creative team was going for - commenting on identities etc - but it is not how it came across to some. There is, conceivably, a way they could have presented the character and reveal in a really interesting and nuanced way which could have strengthened their commentary (and avoided offense) but because it played out so quickly and all we got as reveal->reaction->end of story where things were left underdeveloped. Whether or not Dagger was actually supposed to be trans* or not is a moot point (we are not really given enough information about the character to make a fully formed determination one way or the other, but you are correct in stating he refers to himself as male after the reveal) because the creators employed the "evil crossdresser" trope which is associated with transphobic/transmisogynistic readings.
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