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Post by scouts1998 on Jul 24, 2014 0:30:09 GMT -5
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 24, 2014 2:48:16 GMT -5
Brandon, I guess I'll go first...probably to no one's surprise...but to everyone's shock, I'm going to be positive! At least Wonder Woman isn't wearing a thong as in the Mike Deodato issues. Now that that bit of jocularity is out of the way... We obviously can't tell anything about the story from the un-lettered sample pages, but to my eye at least, the ludicrous pose for Wonder Woman in the main panel (made worse by an awful "camera angle"!), and Diana's vacuous facial expression in the inset are exactly the sort of illustrative flourishes that I feared this book would be receiving. Thankfully, Sensation Comics will be starting soon, and I can always dive into the Archives and re-read the Wonder Woman runs of Perez, Jimenez, Byrne, Simone, and Rucka, or the originals by Marston & Peter...heck, the de-powered "Emma Peel" Diana of Denny O'Neil and Kanigher's "Wonder Woman Harlequin Romances" are starting to look better by the moment!
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Post by scouts1998 on Jul 24, 2014 5:46:37 GMT -5
Bob,
It doesn't suprise me that you were the first one to reply.
I agree with your opinion of the camera angle and with the way it is drawn i can't think a way it can be good.
Also it saddens me to see the Justice League and Swamp Thing as it means she will be more connected with the DCU. Batman, Superman have their own books where they have the spotlight. Even GL and Flash have there own books and if Wonder Woman is to be with the rest of the DCU that is what Justice League and Superman/Wonder Woman is for.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 24, 2014 6:10:38 GMT -5
Bob, It doesn't suprise me that you were the first one to reply. I agree with your opinion of the camera angle and with the way it is drawn i can't think a way it can be good. Also it saddens me to see the Justice League and Swamp Thing as it means she will be more connected with the DCU. Batman, Superman have their own books where they have the spotlight. Even GL and Flash have there own books and if Wonder Woman is to be with the rest of the DCU that is what Justice League and Superman/Wonder Woman is for. Brandon, No matter the things I didn't care for in the current run, Cliff Chiang's art was always stylish and respectful, albeit a bit bloody. Looked at from one angle (and not the one in the promo piece, thank you very much!), this change is the inverse of the one that took place when the art went from the "pin-up" drawings of the young Mike Deodato to the classic style of John Byrne. As to the "guest stars", a little bit of interconnectivity wouldn't be awful, but it does seem that Wonder Woman's "home book" is turning into a frat house.
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Post by thephantomwelshman on Jul 24, 2014 15:13:19 GMT -5
Have to agree, that art doesn't float my boat, I will forgive it though if the writings good. I've loved the current run, and the fact that it's set apart from the rest of the DCU, have a horrible feeling that Wonder Woman could be the new Bat Girl in the sense it'll be hampered by crossovers. Still, at least there will be the Sensational title to fall back on if this isn't up to scratch.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 24, 2014 16:04:49 GMT -5
Have to agree, that art doesn't float my boat, I will forgive it though if the writings good. I've loved the current run, and the fact that it's set apart from the rest of the DCU, have a horrible feeling that Wonder Woman could be the new Bat Girl in the sense it'll be hampered by crossovers. Still, at least there will be the Sensational title to fall back on if this isn't up to scratch. Jon, I agree that there may too much emphasis to connecting Wonder Woman to the rest of the DCU, so the stand-alone Sensation Comics could be the saving grace in all this!!
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Post by Raider30 on Jul 24, 2014 20:18:02 GMT -5
Brandon, I guess I'll go first...probably to no one's surprise...but to everyone's shock, I'm going to be positive! At least Wonder Woman isn't wearing a thong as in the Mike Deodato issues. Now that that bit of jocularity is out of the way... We obviously can't tell anything about the story from the un-lettered sample pages, but to my eye at least, the ludicrous pose for Wonder Woman in the main panel (made worse by an awful "camera angle"!), and Diana's vacuous facial expression in the inset are exactly the sort of illustrative flourishes that I feared this book would be receiving. Thankfully, Sensation Comics will be starting soon, and I can always dive into the Archives and re-read the Wonder Woman runs of Perez, Jimenez, Byrne, Simone, and Rucka, or the originals by Marston & Peter...heck, the de-powered "Emma Peel" Diana of Denny O'Neil and Kanigher's "Wonder Woman Harlequin Romances" are starting to look better by the moment! Heyo, You are of course entitled to your opinion but it kinda seems to me like you had your mind made up already. You see her expression as vacuous - I see it as emblematic of 90% of the super hero expressions on their faces. Someone is forever charging forward with an open mouthed goofy facial expression, it's hardly limited to female characters. Now if you are against all open mouthed faces for all super heroes then I am 100% in your corner! As for her pose... I showed it to my 12 yr old son and asked him what he thought was going on in the picture. His response, "Wonder Woman was doing a jumping sidekick to the bad guys face." Both of us hold black belts in taekwondo and honestly I had thought the same thing. It's a picture perfect jump sidekick. To label it as ludicrous, well I think that's a pretty big stretch and more than a bit of seeing what you expected to see. Just some thoughts from the other side of the coin... Regards, - Beau Ps - I forgot to mention that in that photo her hips, waist, and chest look very much in proportion which I would have thought would have made you happy.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 24, 2014 22:09:06 GMT -5
Brandon, I guess I'll go first...probably to no one's surprise...but to everyone's shock, I'm going to be positive! At least Wonder Woman isn't wearing a thong as in the Mike Deodato issues. Now that that bit of jocularity is out of the way... We obviously can't tell anything about the story from the un-lettered sample pages, but to my eye at least, the ludicrous pose for Wonder Woman in the main panel (made worse by an awful "camera angle"!), and Diana's vacuous facial expression in the inset are exactly the sort of illustrative flourishes that I feared this book would be receiving. Thankfully, Sensation Comics will be starting soon, and I can always dive into the Archives and re-read the Wonder Woman runs of Perez, Jimenez, Byrne, Simone, and Rucka, or the originals by Marston & Peter...heck, the de-powered "Emma Peel" Diana of Denny O'Neil and Kanigher's "Wonder Woman Harlequin Romances" are starting to look better by the moment! Heyo, You are of course entitled to your opinion but it kinda seems to me like you had your mind made up already. You see her expression as vacuous - I see it as emblematic of 90% of the super hero expressions on their faces. Someone is forever charging forward with an open mouthed goofy facial expression, it's hardly limited to female characters. Now if you are against all open mouthed faces for all super heroes then I am 100% in your corner! As for her pose... I showed it to my 12 yr old son and asked him what he thought was going on in the picture. His response, "Wonder Woman was doing a jumping sidekick to the bad guys face." Both of us hold black belts in taekwondo and honestly I had thought the same thing. It's a picture perfect jump sidekick. To label it as ludicrous, well I think that's a pretty big stretch and more than a bit of seeing what you expected to see. Just some thoughts from the other side of the coin... Regards, - Beau Ps - I forgot to me took that in that photo her hips, waist, and chest look very much in proportion which I would have thought would have made you happy. Beau, The fact that Wonder Woman doesn't look like the new Wonder Girl is scant praise considering. Sadly, that facial expression is the SOP of the DC house style at this point, of which Mr. Finch is a prime proponent, so yes, I knew once he was announced what was coming, hence my dismay which you heard on-air. As to what martial arts move Diana is executing, I bow to your wisdom, but I respectfully disagree that a drawing where your eye's entry point into the action is centered upon Wonder Woman's splayed legs and crotch is anything but "ludicrous". How many other "camera angles" could this shot have been taken from that would have been more respectful to the character, her history, and her audience? Perhaps I am "seeing what I expected to see", but I like to consider myself sensitized to this issue, yet not overly-sensitive. There are excesses in lots of super-hero art, it goes without saying, but to my eye at least, once you present a female character as an "object" instead of a "subject", as Diana is shown here, that's where I take exception. Wouldn't DC better serve their business, the marketplace, and the character by having a new Wonder Woman creative team mount a re-launch on the order of the female- and new-reader-friendly Batgirl? Or by this choice, are they tipping their hand that on this book, they're still "playing to their base" of 25-to-45 year old men, which strikes me as very short-sighted when there are oceans of little girls running around in Wonder Woman tee-shirts who don't have an comic book on the stands featuring the character that is appropriate for them to read...besides Scooby-Doo Team-Up, which seems a sad state of affairs. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 19:11:59 GMT -5
Have to agree, that art doesn't float my boat, I will forgive it though if the writings good. I've loved the current run, and the fact that it's set apart from the rest of the DCU, have a horrible feeling that Wonder Woman could be the new Bat Girl in the sense it'll be hampered by crossovers. Still, at least there will be the Sensational title to fall back on if this isn't up to scratch. Jon, I agree that there may too much emphasis to connecting Wonder Woman to the rest of the DCU, so the stand-alone Sensation Comics could be the saving grace in all this!! I guess I'll ask this here as I'm surprised there's no Wonder Woman dedicated thread, but I have been trying SO hard to find a great Wonder Woman story. Unfortunately all the recomendations I get are the same old great idea, great story but no closure as it leads into a creative team change or event or something. I guess its not fair to compare, but are there any singular Wonder Woman stories on the same lines the other big 2 like Year One, Long Halloween, DKR or Birthright, All Star Superman and Superman For All Seasons? The closest thing I've come to is Trinity by Matt Wagner. Also just keeping in mind, I've tried the Greg Rucka books. They're good. But once again, suffer from HAVING to end rather than wanting to end.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 26, 2014 20:19:30 GMT -5
Jon, I agree that there may too much emphasis to connecting Wonder Woman to the rest of the DCU, so the stand-alone Sensation Comics could be the saving grace in all this!! I guess I'll ask this here as I'm surprised there's no Wonder Woman dedicated thread, but I have been trying SO hard to find a great Wonder Woman story. Unfortunately all the recomendations I get are the same old great idea, great story but no closure as it leads into a creative team change or event or something. I guess its not fair to compare, but are there any singular Wonder Woman stories on the same lines the other big 2 like Year One, Long Halloween, DKR or Birthright, All Star Superman and Superman For All Seasons? The closest thing I've come to is Trinity by Matt Wagner. Also just keeping in mind, I've tried the Greg Rucka books. They're good. But once again, suffer from HAVING to end rather than wanting to end. Benjamin, Of the more recent stuff, I might suggest the Gail Simone arc (#26 to #33) that's collected as the trade "Rise of the Olympian". It (obviously)features tons of mythology and great usage of the Amazons, plus some creepy super-villainy countered by great heroism from Diana...and some surprises that I won't spoil. In the older stuff, in George Perez's run, issues #1 to #14 of the post-Crisis re-boot (collected as "Gods and Mortals" and "Challenge of the Gods" are the "gold standard", and in Phil Jimenez's run #164 to #177 ("Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Found") are also excellent arcs. For a quick "study guide", you might want to take a look at a piece that I posted entitled Wonder Woman: Milestones
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Post by CaptainSuperior on Jul 27, 2014 7:16:38 GMT -5
Finch can keep this version of Wonder Woman, but my dollars will be going towards the upcoming Sensation Comics.
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Post by Raider30 on Jul 27, 2014 12:00:21 GMT -5
Heyo, You are of course entitled to your opinion but it kinda seems to me like you had your mind made up already. You see her expression as vacuous - I see it as emblematic of 90% of the super hero expressions on their faces. Someone is forever charging forward with an open mouthed goofy facial expression, it's hardly limited to female characters. Now if you are against all open mouthed faces for all super heroes then I am 100% in your corner! As for her pose... I showed it to my 12 yr old son and asked him what he thought was going on in the picture. His response, "Wonder Woman was doing a jumping sidekick to the bad guys face." Both of us hold black belts in taekwondo and honestly I had thought the same thing. It's a picture perfect jump sidekick. To label it as ludicrous, well I think that's a pretty big stretch and more than a bit of seeing what you expected to see. Just some thoughts from the other side of the coin... Regards, - Beau Ps - I forgot to me took that in that photo her hips, waist, and chest look very much in proportion which I would have thought would have made you happy. Beau, The fact that Wonder Woman doesn't look like the new Wonder Girl is scant praise considering. Sadly, that facial expression is the SOP of the DC house style at this point, of which Mr. Finch is a prime proponent, so yes, I knew once he was announced what was coming, hence my dismay which you heard on-air. As to what martial arts move Diana is executing, I bow to your wisdom, but I respectfully disagree that a drawing where your eye's entry point into the action is centered upon Wonder Woman's splayed legs and crotch is anything but "ludicrous". How many other "camera angles" could this shot have been taken from that would have been more respectful to the character, her history, and her audience? Perhaps I am "seeing what I expected to see", but I like to consider myself sensitized to this issue, yet not overly-sensitive. There are excesses in lots of super-hero art, it goes without saying, but to my eye at least, once you present a female character as an "object" instead of a "subject", as Diana is shown here, that's where I take exception. Wouldn't DC better serve their business, the marketplace, and the character by having a new Wonder Woman creative team mount a re-launch on the order of the female- and new-reader-friendly Batgirl? Or by this choice, are they tipping their hand that on this book, they're still "playing to their base" of 25-to-45 year old men, which strikes me as very short-sighted when there are oceans of little girls running around in Wonder Woman tee-shirts who don't have an comic book on the stands featuring the character that is appropriate for them to read...besides Scooby-Doo Team-Up, which seems a sad state of affairs. We'll have to agree to disagree. Heyo, Scant praise? I would have thought you would be singing from the rooftops that the drawing appears to be proportional, as out of proportion women seem to be one of your major pet peeves, and I just got back from 8 days at the beach so I can tell you it's definitely proportional! Man, I get that the classic heroes have a soft spot in your heart, and I know how that feels as you and I are definitely on the same page when it comes to the Fantastic Four. So I get that you want your character treated in a respectful way and can absolutely respect that sentiment. But personally, she's a woman, not a girl. Giving her the new Batgirl treatment? No thanks. IMO, the new Batgirl looks like something out of one of my kid's cartoon shows. Like Kim Possible or Ben 10's sister. If they want to draw the character like that to bring in a different audience, more power to them. I loved that Marvel did the Marvel Adventures series, that's how I got my son hooked on the Hulk. Lighter style artwork and a lighter style story. However, Batgirl's new look does not lend itself to a serious story, and maybe that's what they intended, a 180 degree turn from the current Batgirl. But giving Wonder Woman the same treatment and/or criticising every angle of every page...well I get the impression that if the shot would have been rotated so her head was in the foreground someone would have complained about being able to look down her chest, or if she was flipped around someone would have complained that her butt was too prominent, her legs too long, her waist too small, her wearing heels, her hair flowing too wildly, her.... etc. I mean someone could probably comment on literally every panel in a Wonder Woman comic and find something disagreeable about it depending on your point of view. I see the page as a whole, her delivering a nice jump side kick to the face of a villain...you see her crotch. Different perspectives I guess. Ultimately though it's subjective and you've got your view and I mine, and those views will converge at times and diverge at times and I respect your thoughts and hopefully you mine. That's the nice thing about these particular forums. - Beau
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 19:41:15 GMT -5
There are definitely warranted arguments about proportions and positions women and teenage girls are placed in in comics. But when it comes to Wonder Woman, more often than not I place it down to mythology and history. A character with Greek mythological background wouldn't exactly fight in jeans and a hoodie. I can't believe I'm bringing up Greek history to defend the decisions made about a fictional character, but I will anyway. Men in ancient Greece played in the Olympics completely naked, and went into battle wearing torso and loin armour and sandals and not much else. Throw in a helmet for good measure. So Wonder Woman, a character with the same background, wearing the same thing, isn't a problem. That's not my opinion. Thats history. I would also argue that a character raised in a society of only women and without the threat of sexism or objectivism (is that a word? I hope so) wouldn't worry about where her leg goes when she's kicking evil in the face. But then you could bring up that this is not only a fictional character but one created by a man and when you get right down to the origin its about a man crash landing on a island full of beautiful women so there's enough to argue about there until the sun goes down. Proportions being the very least of them.
Comics are modern day mythology. Fiction. I highly doubt people in ancient Greece argued about the proportions of Hercules' manhood in the paintings and statues. Then again I'm not Bill or Ted so I can't confirm or deny it either.
Tim Drake and Catwoman are my favourite characters of all time. And I have Ed Brubaker and Chuck Dixon to thank for that. I hated what the New 52 has done with them so far so you know what I did? Cancelled my order for their books and went back and read the Ed Brubaker and Chuck Dixon series. Problem solved.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 22:27:11 GMT -5
I guess I'll ask this here as I'm surprised there's no Wonder Woman dedicated thread, but I have been trying SO hard to find a great Wonder Woman story. Unfortunately all the recomendations I get are the same old great idea, great story but no closure as it leads into a creative team change or event or something. I guess its not fair to compare, but are there any singular Wonder Woman stories on the same lines the other big 2 like Year One, Long Halloween, DKR or Birthright, All Star Superman and Superman For All Seasons? The closest thing I've come to is Trinity by Matt Wagner. Also just keeping in mind, I've tried the Greg Rucka books. They're good. But once again, suffer from HAVING to end rather than wanting to end. Benjamin, Of the more recent stuff, I might suggest the Gail Simone arc (#26 to #33) that's collected as the trade "Rise of the Olympian". It (obviously)features tons of mythology and great usage of the Amazons, plus some creepy super-villainy countered by great heroism from Diana...and some surprises that I won't spoil. In the older stuff, in George Perez's run, issues #1 to #14 of the post-Crisis re-boot (collected as "Gods and Mortals" and "Challenge of the Gods" are the "gold standard", and in Phil Jimenez's run #164 to #177 ("Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Found") are also excellent arcs. For a quick "study guide", you might want to take a look at a piece that I posted entitled Wonder Woman: MilestonesI just looked up the George Perez run, never realized it started with the origin story. And of course to my luck its way, way, WAY out of print. Surely they'll be reprinting it soon. Hopefully. Seems strange DC and Marvel reprint things like this so late in the game eg the Abnett Guardians run, No Mans Land for DKR (and still no Legacy reprint), always released AFTER the announcement, not before when everybody scrambles for it. Oh well. Patience.
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Post by Bob Reyer on Jul 28, 2014 6:49:30 GMT -5
Benjamin, Of the more recent stuff, I might suggest the Gail Simone arc (#26 to #33) that's collected as the trade "Rise of the Olympian". It (obviously)features tons of mythology and great usage of the Amazons, plus some creepy super-villainy countered by great heroism from Diana...and some surprises that I won't spoil. In the older stuff, in George Perez's run, issues #1 to #14 of the post-Crisis re-boot (collected as "Gods and Mortals" and "Challenge of the Gods" are the "gold standard", and in Phil Jimenez's run #164 to #177 ("Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Found") are also excellent arcs. For a quick "study guide", you might want to take a look at a piece that I posted entitled Wonder Woman: MilestonesI just looked up the George Perez run, never realized it started with the origin story. And of course to my luck its way, way, WAY out of print. Surely they'll be reprinting it soon. Hopefully. Seems strange DC and Marvel reprint things like this so late in the game eg the Abnett Guardians run, No Mans Land for DKR (and still no Legacy reprint), always released AFTER the announcement, not before when everybody scrambles for it. Oh well. Patience. Benjamin, I should have checked on the availability of those George Perez Wonder Woman volumes before touting them, but I can't fathom why they're out-of-print, although the original Birds of Prey trades by Chuck Dixon and Gail Simone suffer a similar fate, so I shouldn't be surprised. If I see Perez TPBs in my travels, I'll shoot you a line.
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