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Post by wamphari on May 19, 2015 10:57:08 GMT -5
Ok, so as referenced in a previous post, the TV show is way rappier than the books and this is a problem, especially in light of the most recent episode. The closing scene seems so bizarrely unnecessary and really makes me wonder what its purpose was. We learned nothing new about any of the characters, it didn't change any status quos, and seemed only to give Sansa further cause to hate the Boltons, whom she already hated. The three significant rape scenes so far on the show (drogo of daeny, jamie of cersei and ramsay of sansa)have all been off book. It just make me wonder what the motivation of the writers is. It's a strange situations because in the case of most other shows I would just chalk it up to bad writers, but clearly the writing for this show has been, at least for the most part, quite good. What is most concerning to me, is that as show writers get further from the books, the writing may continue to deteriorate. The scene in the Watergardens was very poor. The fact that the Vipers and Jammie and Bron all just happen to arrive at the same time to kidnap the same person, in broad daylight, virtually within view of the Prince of Dorne stretches belief even for a bad fantasy show, let alone a good one. The "action scene" which followed had some of the worst fight choreography this series have ever seen. It looked like a first practice take. Overall not a good episode, hopefully this turns out to be a low point and not a sign of things to come.
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Post by IncredibleD on May 19, 2015 11:53:33 GMT -5
Yeah, that scene was horrible.Sansa has never been one of my favourite characters, but at the end of season 4 it looked like she was becoming stronger instead of being used by people all of the time.But this season so far has done nothing for her, except make her even weaker than she was before.
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Post by Tony on May 19, 2015 20:25:43 GMT -5
Ok, so as referenced in a previous post, the TV show is way rappier than the books and this is a problem, especially in light of the most recent episode. The closing scene seems so bizarrely unnecessary and really makes me wonder what its purpose was. We learned nothing new about any of the characters, it didn't change any status quos, and seemed only to give Sansa further cause to hate the Boltons, whom she already hated. The three significant rape scenes so far on the show (drogo of daeny, jamie of cersei and ramsay of sansa)have all been off book. It just make me wonder what the motivation of the writers is. It's a strange situations because in the case of most other shows I would just chalk it up to bad writers, but clearly the writing for this show has been, at least for the most part, quite good. What is most concerning to me, is that as show writers get further from the books, the writing may continue to deteriorate. The scene in the Watergardens was very poor. The fact that the Vipers and Jammie and Bron all just happen to arrive at the same time to kidnap the same person, in broad daylight, virtually within view of the Prince of Dorne stretches belief even for a bad fantasy show, let alone a good one. The "action scene" which followed had some of the worst fight choreography this series have ever seen. It looked like a first practice take. Overall not a good episode, hopefully this turns out to be a low point and not a sign of things to come. Couldn't agree more; spot-on. Not only is it extreme disservice to both Sansa's and Littlefinger's characters what's happened this season merging Sansa & Jayne (he loves her way too much to put her in that situation, and it's three steps back for her, to say the least), and in extreme distaste to end an episode that way (or, really, to have that scene at all), and totally unnecessary in terms of character development (regression, if anything), and a continuation of a very troubling trend -as you say- of the show-writers changing the material in a way that demeans the women characters (I'm still livid over the Jamie/Cersei scene from last year for a litany of reasons), but I also agree that the wheels feel like they're starting to come off the closer we get to the show catching up to the end of what George has put out so far, and that does not fill me with confidence that these trends will pay off in a positive way or be rectified. And the comments/statements by the actors, writers, directors, and showrunners (as well as George himself, sadly) in regards to the concerns of the fans have also been horrifically lackluster (mostly they seem to feel like the viewers who are upset "just don't get it" and hold to the company lines of "we're doing the best we can" and "obviously we have to change things for TV; your expectations are unreasonable", none of which addresses in the slightest the massively problematic nature of many of those changes). Too, you're not the only one who thought that fight scene (and, honestly, the whole Jamie & Bronn "quest" in just about every way) was lackluster. Like . . holy crap, guys, you've shown us great fights several times on this show, you ended last season with one; who's taking the day off that we ended up with that high-school theater production level disappointment that we saw in the water gardens? Shambolic stuff. At the end of last season, I was so excited to head to Dorne this year, and sadly what they've given us has been really, really weak in nearly every way. I love the books, and I've loved nearly every episode of this show 'till this season (barring a couple from last year), counting it maybe the best show on television for 4+ years, and I've been willing to mostly-forgive the neutering and outright omission of a substantial percentage of my favorite moments from the source material in the name of "these are the things we have to do to adapt it for TV", but they're losing me, they really are. And that hurts. And if my twitter feed has any basis in reality, we're not the only ones that had major problems with this weeks ep, and as I just mentioned, it seems like the creators just don't care. Their insensitivity and stubborn defensiveness is very troubling. As comparison, consider Cameron Stewart, Brenden Fletcher, and Babs Tarr's response back in December to the Batgirl #37 concerns; they came out almost immediately and more or less said (paraphrasing), "We hear you, we understand your concerns, and you know what, you're right; we could have, and should have done better. We made a mistake, we're fallible, and we're genuinely sorry. Please stick with us; your input is invaluable and precious to us, and we care about our fans more than you can imagine." THAT'S how you address tasteless and problematic controversy, with compassion, humility, and empathy; to respond with defensiveness and condescension is less than ideal, and isn't going to win anyone over or help fix what they're getting so, so wrong.
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Post by harmonica on May 19, 2015 23:56:16 GMT -5
actually i think that, in contrary to the other rape scenes, this one was needed.
We already know that in Westeros, for a marriage to be official the Bride and Groom have to had Sex, and we have also heard, that there sometimes are witnesses for just that.
so Ramsey had to rape her, be cause he needs the marriage, but doesnt care about her and she agreeing with the sex wouldnt make sense either.
now they could have skipped the scene, but i guess it would be hard to grasp for the viewer what happened, especially since there will be major character shifts for Theon and Sansa
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Post by Tony on May 20, 2015 15:30:06 GMT -5
actually i think that, in contrary to the other rape scenes, this one was needed. We already know that in Westeros, for a marriage to be official the Bride and Groom have to had Sex, and we have also heard, that there sometimes are witnesses for just that. so Ramsey had to rape her, be cause he needs the marriage, but doesnt care about her and she agreeing with the sex wouldnt make sense either. now they could have skipped the scene, but i guess it would be hard to grasp for the viewer what happened, especially since there will be major character shifts for Theon and Sansa But she wasn't supposed to be within 500 miles of him to begin with; she's not supposed to *meet* Ramsey at all, let alone be raped by him, horrifically, to close out an episode. It's inappropriate to her character at this point in the story, she who has already been in this exact situation previously and escaped it and moved on and grown and found safe haven in The Vale, and it's also totally contrary to Littlefinger's character to have ever put her in that position.
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Post by harmonica on May 21, 2015 0:15:23 GMT -5
ok thats a whole other problem though, having the Series differ from the book, which i too hate, but lets see if there is a point to it before going all crazy about it.
i havent read past book 3 so i didnt know that sansa isnt supposed to meet ramsey, and coming from that point of view its all very much in character.
Ramsey being a huge sadist asshole, littlefinger using everything and everyone for his own gain, Sansa still unable to help herself.
btw i never was a big sansa fan to begin with and i agree that she has mainly been a a tool to show how awful people are, and i really hope she gets her time to shine and fuck people up.
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Post by Tony on May 21, 2015 0:41:16 GMT -5
ok thats a whole other problem though, having the Series differ from the book, which i too hate, but lets see if there is a point to it before going all crazy about it. i havent read past book 3 so i didnt know that sansa isnt supposed to meet ramsey, and coming from that point of view its all very much in character. Ramsey being a huge sadist asshole, littlefinger using everything and everyone for his own gain, Sansa still unable to help herself. btw i never was a big sansa fan to begin with and i agree that she has mainly been a a tool to show how awful people are, and i really hope she gets her time to shine and fuck people up. but we already know Ramsey is a huge sadist asshole. This last episode wasn't necessary to teach us the depths of his depravity. And a huge part of Littlefinger's character is his (admittedly gross, borderline pedophilic) obsession with Sansa as a romantic interest, because he sees her as his second chance at Cat, the great love of his life. He very seriously loves her; he would not put her in danger like that, even if he thought it would gain him power. He's so smart that he can get what he wants without having to endanger literally the only other thing in the world he cares about other than his own ambition. And Sansa being unable to help herself is Kings Landing Sansa. What's the point of showing her growth last year if she's going to regress and end up in a Joff-esque situation? There are changes between the books and the show that work just fine, and then there are some that cause problems. The decisions they've made that have led to putting Sansa in this situation fall in the latter category. They decided to combine her character with Jayne Poole's character because they wanted Sansa to feature in this season instead of her plotline sitting stale for a year. I understand that impulse, I do, but ultimately, it has led to a betrayal of both her and Littlefinger's character arcs, and it also led to one of the most tasteless scenes in television history. Double whammy, as I see it. I think it's fair to say that it was a bad call, and they're catching a whole lot of shit for it, and rightfully so.
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Post by harmonica on May 21, 2015 0:47:47 GMT -5
well i stand by my opinion that in regards to the TV show's storyline the scene makes total sense and is even necessary.
but i also agree with your point, that its an unfortunate change, but like you already said its also a necessary change to not have her be gone for a whole season and also confuse the people watching the show with more characters that are rooted in the book but never really showed up in the Show.
and i know a lot of the casual audience who already get confused by the amount of characters on the show.
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Post by wamphari on Jun 11, 2015 14:18:39 GMT -5
Just quickly, wow... last few episodes have been the essence of epic. No spoilers, but Jesus I really can't believe they did something they did.
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Post by therobotmaster on Jun 12, 2015 10:40:11 GMT -5
Just quickly, wow... last few episodes have been the essence of epic. No spoilers, but Jesus I really can't believe they did something they did. YES, seriously. From what I thought was a pretty boring start to the season really turned itself around. And the last half of episode 8 is what I've been waiting for since the very first episode.
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Post by harmonica on Jun 16, 2015 16:14:00 GMT -5
Wow
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Post by therobotmaster on Jun 17, 2015 10:05:12 GMT -5
YEAH!! Did not see that coming at the end of the finale. Not sure what is going to happen in that part of the world now, but I see it drastically effecting the rest of Westeros farther on down the line. *Keeping this intentionally vague to avoid spoiling it.
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Post by IncredibleD on Jun 21, 2015 1:22:29 GMT -5
This wasn't my favourite season (season 4 still is)but the last three episodes were amazing.The White Walker scene in episode 8, the end of episode 9 in Mereen(talk about epic...Holy shit!), and everything in the last episode.I refuse to believe what happened at the end of the last episode, sure their have been a lot of deaths, but i refuse to believe that one.
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Post by wamphari on Jun 22, 2015 15:29:56 GMT -5
I feel like this season took a awhile to get going and had some really bad missteps throughout (rapier than normal plus some just bad direction and story construction), but ended very strong. First seven episodes, weakest in the series so far, last three episodes, among the strongest so far. Kind of a weird season I guess.
By my count there are 5 characters that we have been led to believe are dead, though none of which have direct confirmation of being so. What do we think of the odds?
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Post by BatFonz on Jul 14, 2015 2:26:28 GMT -5
I've succumbed to watching this from the start after 3 attempts and it stuck this time, I finally GoT what everyone else was seeing. The period political stuff is good fun and no-one ever told me about just how funny it is, I have often found myself laughing really hard at scenes. Not sure if its because I marathoned 5 seasons in 2wks but I loved Season 5, proper dragons & zombie armies - Oh Hell Yeah!
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