|
Post by Tony on Nov 20, 2014 17:03:56 GMT -5
This perfectly echoes my own take on it. (Hint: it ain't pretty.) ". . . Previous works illustrated by David Finch have featured women drawn like bobble-headed blow-up dolls, positioned uncomfortably (if not impossibly) with glassy stares and open mouths. This continues in Wonder Woman #36, throughout the entire issue. Diana is drawn as though she is constantly on the verge of bursting into tears, with breasts as big as her head, and a waist thinner than her thigh. When shown standing or sitting next to any of her fellow male Justice League members (also penciled so absurdly as to border on the Liefeldian), she looks like a tiny, petulant teenager.
Wonder Woman’s infantilization in this comic goes further than just that visual. We spend two pages with her and Aquaman (flying in a jet that the King of Atlantis is piloting, of course) while Diana whinges about how difficult balancing the different aspects of her life are, all while she clutches an actual teddy bear. It’s a curious thought as to how she came across that teddy bear; did she carry it with her onto the plane, along with sword and shield, in front of all the boys? Or does she keep it on the jet to cuddle when they hit turbulence? Maybe the Finches are confused, and think they’re writing a Wonder Girl comic; it’s the only reasonable explanation for this that I can think of. . ." doomrocket.com/hey-kids-comics-wonder-woman-36/
|
|
|
Post by Bob Reyer on Nov 20, 2014 18:10:03 GMT -5
So..... Just read 36 Never been more nervous about a podcast episode in my life. Because I loved it. It didn't completely disregard the previous arc like I was expecting it to but it still feels like a fresh start. I thought Meredith Finch's writing was great. But it feels so much like a number 1 that I want to wait until the next issue to really get a grasp of where its going. I also love that it had me looking one way and then POW, went in a completely different direction. WW also feels like more of a main character in this then she did in the entire Azzarello run. Henry, "Be Afraid...be very afraid..."And I get to be on two podcasts to talk about issue #36 of Wonder Woman!! (All in fun; if you enjoyed it, that's great!)
|
|
|
Post by pacino on Nov 20, 2014 18:32:27 GMT -5
Come on Bob, you better BURN IT DOWN (NSFW)
|
|
|
Post by Bob Reyer on Nov 20, 2014 18:35:38 GMT -5
Come on Bob, you better BURN IT DOWN (NSFW) Sorry Chris, as much as I'd like to spill the beans, I've been sworn to secrecy; you're just going to have to wait to listen to the next episode of The Missfits!
|
|
|
Post by rgsc on Nov 21, 2014 8:50:03 GMT -5
Blerg. Perhaps not as bad as I imagined it might possibly be - it could have conceivably been worse...maybe not much but there are a few scenarios that would have been even more terrible and, hey, this is only their first issue so I am sure there will be time for them to plumb the depths! - but it pretty much was as bad as I expected it to be.
The characterization was bad, the dialogue clunky, the story they are setting up holds no interest to me at all, AND I really hate the way DFinch draws WW (I am really happy the Lego variant cover was available). Count me out.
Although I do really want the Darwyn Cooke variant next month. The question I will have to answer is whether or not the cover is worth the $3 on its own.... I want to support DC for doing the great variants but not reward them for such terrible content. If only I could just order a print or poster of the cover.
One thing I will say for this comic is DFinch draws one hell of a Swamp Thing. I just wish MFinch didn't have Wonder Woman swoop in and immediately start punching him to pieces.
|
|
|
Post by pacino on Nov 21, 2014 9:03:27 GMT -5
What I did was I made the Cooke piece the background on my phone, so now I can look at it without buying it.
|
|
|
Post by pacino on Nov 21, 2014 9:06:55 GMT -5
Blerg. Perhaps not as bad as I imagined it might possibly be - it could have conceivably been worse...maybe not much but there are a few scenarios that would have been even more terrible and, hey, this is only their first issue so I am sure there will be time for them to plumb the depths! - but it pretty much was as bad as I expected it to be. The characterization was bad, the dialogue clunky, the story they are setting up holds no interest to me at all, AND I really hate the way DFinch draws WW (I am really happy the Lego variant cover was available). Count me out. Although I do really want the Darwyn Cooke variant next month. The question I will have to answer is whether or not the cover is worth the $3 on its own.... I want to support DC for doing the great variants but not reward them for such terrible content. If only I could just order a print or poster of the cover. One thing I will say for this comic is DFinch draws one hell of a Swamp Thing. I just wish MFinch didn't have Wonder Woman swoop in and immediately start punching him to pieces. then she loses and she is dressed down for attempting to fight Holland! I mean, she isn't this crazy woman that fights first and asks questions later. I don't think Meredith read one WW comic before writing this. Why is Diana in a towel on the 4th page of the comic??? It's so unnecessary. 4 pages to introduce the concept of water to the reader. I mean come ON. You know what annoys me??? My local shop ordered 50 issues of this and sold 48 thus far! For #35 they ordered 20 and have 3 left. I guess the reader has spoken.
|
|
|
Post by rgsc on Nov 21, 2014 10:45:47 GMT -5
then she loses and she is dressed down for attempting to fight Holland! I mean, she isn't this crazy woman that fights first and asks questions later. I don't think Meredith read one WW comic before writing this. Exactly! God of War or no, just to come in fists firsts is out of character - it is not like Swampy is an unknown quantity, some random "monster". They know who he is so, you know, maybe say, "Hey Holland, what's up" before attempting to shred him. The dialogue in the plane tries to explain it away (she has so much on her plate!) but colour me unconvinced. Oh, she has read more than 1 WW comic: she has read the Azzarello/Chiang run....aaaaand that's pretty much it. In an interview I read they asked what her favourite run is and she basically said that she only read the Nu52 version so that was her answer. Yup. But water is so, like, you know, metaphorical! Its...deep...and stuff. In fairness, Chiang started WW#1 with an undressed Diana. HOWEVER the handling of the two is extremely different. Here's how CC did it (don't have issue 36 with me & couldn't find a scan of the page online so we can't do a compare/contrast). Man, I miss his art already. Ugh!
|
|
|
Post by pacino on Nov 24, 2014 12:44:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by TealProductions on Nov 24, 2014 19:18:36 GMT -5
Perhaps the thing to do is for everyone to stop buying wonder Woman so that she can be put out of her misery.
That seems to be what DC wants by putting a cheesecake artist with a total novice writer on such an important part of DC's history.
Let her rest until someone worthy can write her with the respect she deserves.
Quit propping up a book YOU (the reader) want and let it die a noble death.
|
|
|
Post by henrythemorerecent on Nov 30, 2014 18:45:13 GMT -5
I don't want to open up a whole can of worms, but back to the Azzarello/Chiang run:
There's a lot of love for this series but also hate. Most of the negativity towards it that I have personally seen comes from this podcast or forum as everyone locally has done nothing but recommend it to me. But it was the negative reaction to it from this podcast that put me off reading it. But thats what critics are for. Whether they enjoy it or not, they still offer an opinion. AN opinion. And eveybody has the ability to decide whether that is for them or not based on that critisism.
In terms of personal relationship to the character, I'd read Hiketeia, Trinity, JLA and watched the animated movie and enjoyed them all.
Then when the movie was announced, I really wanted to be able to have an objective opinion to it as there are some serious words against the change of the origin and so on. I didn't want to be one of those people that just jumped on a hate bandwagon just because. So I bought it and read it from #0 to #35.
I absolutely loved it. But one thing I realised from this run is that it reads as one big story. There aren't really arcs to it. So I'm wondering how many people were able to read it from start to finish? Because there were so many times reading it that I saw incredible Wonder Woman-ey Wonder Woman moments and thought "If only they kept reading".
To me it read as if it was the classic Wonder Woman people love who was just thrown into a situation which changed her. I know the person I am today is far from the person I was 5 years ago. The person then would probably hate me now. But your personality can change and life events can change your perspective on things. It happens. So I wonder why, if that can happen in real life, why a fictional character can have changes thrust upon them and it not be, in the very least, accepted?
The best example I can think of is not me but a friend of mine. They had strong personal religious beliefs but one day decided "Nope". Simple as that. And there were those who accepted it as this persons decision, and those who did not take it well. It doesn't make anything about it right or wrong.
I think in terms of writing and art, this Wonder Woman run is well done. That can't really be disputed aside from personal taste. Critically it is very well received, and the creative team have a history of acclaim. So they are talented.
But more importantly I think the changes to her origin and personality while not to the taste of some, shouldn't be instantly put in the internet famous pop-culture "awful" or "abomination" piles. Its just different. It's change. And, as everybody knows, things change but at the same time people don't like change.
There seems to be this attitude towards those who enjoy this run of "Well you have no history with the character prior to this". But so what? That is such a stereotypical "comic book store guy" attitude to have. Imagine a new excited reader having read this and loving it and then being told "Oh no you can't like this, its so wrong, you have to have read this run from the 50's and 60's and 70's and 80's and 90's to really like the character". It would instantly turn the person off.
After having read this run and thought over it SO much more than anything I've ever read to be honest, I really want to try and recommend it more and more to those who haven't read it, especially to those who haven't read it for the same reason I didn't: Because of outside opinion.
Something that garners this much discussion is worth more than just being ignored.
Then again, Identity Crisis is my second favourite graphic novel of all time and that got just as much (if not more) controversy.
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on Nov 30, 2014 22:16:46 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying. I've loved Wonder Woman ever since I was a kid. I get why some people didn't like the Azzarello and Chang run. I really do. And honestly, by the end, I had kind of grown tired of it. But overall, I really enjoyed what they did with it. It was different, but not totally outside the realm of possibility. The thing about Wonder Woman is, she has a really fantastic, rich, interesting history, but for better or worse, her personality has always been kind of etch-a-sketch. Because so many writers over the decades have wanted to imbue her with their own sense of what an iconic female character should be, she has been far more malleable than say Batman or Superman. That is not to say that there aren't particular attributes of the character that have long shined through, but that they are kind of a jumble. Even when Marston created the character, she was a mix of contradictions, on the one level of an icon of women's suffrage, on another a symbol of Marston's own erotic fixations.
What the best WW runs have done over the years is to explore the tension between all these things. If you've never read any of Gail Simone's run on WW, I highly recommend checking it out. Simone's genius was to pull together all these disparate characteristics of Diana and help them to make sense. After reading her version of Diana, it became understandable how she could be both warrior and peacemaker, both princess and populist, both sex symbol and feminist hero.
So yeah, I liked what Azzarello did as an entry in the overall evolution of the character. I would not have wanted it forever, but I think it makes an interesting contribution, particularly to the way that the Greek mythology that surrounds the character is played out. And after reading the first issue of the new run... well... I am still trying to be hopeful that the Finches will somehow change direction, but let's just say for now that I am already having Azzarello nostalgia.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Reyer on Nov 30, 2014 23:50:37 GMT -5
Henry,
What follows is meant to be a re-statement of some of my thoughts regarding the on-model presentation of comic book heroes, and is not meant to be a nit-picking refutation of your obviously impassioned posting, but you do bring up some points that commonly re-appear in discussions about characters with long histories and various iterations.
Due to the serialized nature of comic book story-telling and the turn-over in creative teams, there are going to be runs on characters that fly in the face of the accepted norms for that character, in some cases such extreme versions that they seem as "Imaginary Stories" or "What If.."/"Elseworlds" tales. If we change the personality and origin of a character, are they, in fact, the character their creator intended? As a thought exercise, let's say that the person following Scott Snyder on Batman is Katie Cook from My Little Pony. In her new version of the Caped Crusader's origin, his parents are not shot, but instead they give $200 and Martha's pearls to the thug in the alley who then runs away. The Waynes bring up their son in a loving and giving home, and he vows to fight injustice by using his parents' methods, and taking inspiration from items in his bedroom. Bruce hands out plush unicorns and kitten posters to sad homeless people. It's certainly within anyone's rights to enjoy this, but some historical perspective would let you see that things were just a bit off.
As an passionate appreciator and avid collector of music, films, books, and comics, I've always found it vital to attempt to understand how an art form grew, and what were the milestones one had to pass in order to more fully appreciate the present-day version, or in some cases, to modify or reject them in light of a more rounded experience. When I first began listening to Jazz some 40 years ago, a friend in the local record shop acted as a guide, directing me toward those artists whose impact on the music was the greatest. With that acquired knowledge as a base, I would say there's very little connection between Coleman Hawkins, Sonny Rollins, or John Coltrane with the "jazz" of Kenny G, excepting their instrument of choice and where their albums are catalogued in the store.
My personal belief is that there are three super-heroes whose raison d'etre stands for something other than battles with villains: Superman, Captain America, and Wonder Woman, so off-model versions of these characters inspire more angst for folks such as myself who either share long histories with them or acquired them through later readings. This isn't to suggest that one needs to read every word ever printed about a character to have an opinion, just that as Harlan Ellison so eloquently (and curmudgeonly) states: "Everybody has opinions: I have them, you have them. And we are all told from the moment we open our eyes, that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. Well...We are not entitled to our own opinions; we are entitled to our informed opinions."
I like to believe when I opine during one of my *patent pending* rants that it's coming from a desire to educate and not invalidate, but if I come across as a cranky school teacher, it is from a heart-felt need to provide the tools so folks can create that informed opinion...even, or especially if, we disagree!
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on Dec 1, 2014 0:20:37 GMT -5
Bob,
You make some great points. And the one thing I did not mention was that I do think it was a mistake for Azzarello to change Wonder Woman's origin so that she is no longer the woman made of clay who was literally loved into being by her mother. That robs the character of one of her defining characteristics, her desire to know whether or not she can be fully human.
That said, I would totally buy and read a Batman comic in which he hands out plush unicorns and kitten posters. And if Batman could somehow end up riding a unicorn, all the better.
I'm curious, what would you say are the pieces of a character like Wonder Woman that are unchangeable and what are the things that are more open to interpretation?
I'd also be curious to know, given what you said about alternate universe versions of these characters, what you think of the J. Michael Straczynski "Odyssey" WW storyline from a few years back?
(Forgive me if I'm bringing up things that you've already discussed elsewhere. If so, just point me to the right place. No need to reinvent the wheel.)
|
|
|
Post by Bob Reyer on Dec 1, 2014 7:17:24 GMT -5
Bob, You make some great points. And the one thing I did not mention was that I do think it was a mistake for Azzarello to change Wonder Woman's origin so that she is no longer the woman made of clay who was literally loved into being by her mother. That robs the character of one of her defining characteristics, her desire to know whether or not she can be fully human. That said, I would totally buy and read a Batman comic in which he hands out plush unicorns and kitten posters. And if Batman could somehow end up riding a unicorn, all the better. I'm curious, what would you say are the pieces of a character like Wonder Woman that are unchangeable and what are the things that are more open to interpretation? I'd also be curious to know, given what you said about alternate universe versions of these characters, what you think of the J. Michael Straczynski "Odyssey" WW storyline from a few years back? (Forgive me if I'm bringing up things that you've already discussed elsewhere. If so, just point me to the right place. No need to reinvent the wheel.) Jonathan, I firmly believe that the Marston/Peter origin for Wonder Woman is the most poignant in comics history, even beyond the murder of Batman's parents, the destruction of Krypton, or the death of Uncle Ben. As opposed to so many origins which are tied to tragedy, Diana's birth comes from the purest love imaginable, informing all her choices in life, and as Dr. Marston was looking to highlight the attributes of his "New Woman", it showed that Hippolyta could be both a working queen and a mother, all with the support of her sisters...although it would take some doing! For me, a "true" Wonder Woman begins with that origin, and that the Amazons are the highly-technological, peace-loving (but willing to fight a good fight!) separatists that Dr. Marston envisioned. Diana's mission is to bring the Amazons' ideals to Man's World, which as seen from an outsider's point of view is a fairly barbaric place, so Diana's "hero's journey" is to go to our "strange land" and lend her aid. She is therefore not only a diplomat, but a teacher and a social reformer, and as a super-heroine, a compassionate champion of justice, who will try every measure possible to avoid conflict, but who will take arms against a sea of trouble. All these roles need to be finely balanced, with the "warrior woman" aspect that has become ascendant in recent years left to the last resort, as Gail Simone wrote in her #25: " We have a saying, my people: Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can pacify, and don't raise your hand at all until you've first extended it." There are so many tales that can still be wrought from these traits and ideals (witness the new Sensation Comics!), that turning them all on their head as Mr. Azzarello did, or that Meredith & David Finch seemed poised to do, strikes me as un-necessary. As to the JMS version...how dare he give Wonder Woman a pair of long pants! What was he thinking?!? Seriously, I did start his run (although I'm not a fan of his work generally), but gave it up as too "post-apocalyptic", especially coming as it did after the epic Gail Simone era. I've always meant to give it another go, however.
|
|