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Post by Huw on Dec 25, 2014 7:39:57 GMT -5
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Post by Tony on Dec 26, 2014 20:22:05 GMT -5
so not one of you has read Brian K Vaughan and Marcos Martin's The Private Eye, then?
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74 
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Post by bpp on Dec 28, 2014 22:34:27 GMT -5
Depressing how beholden to the Big Two the discussion was. That and the caveat of 'hey a woman did something'.
Can't imagine voting for much of the short list, the readers choices were much more diverse and interesting.
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Post by Tony on Dec 29, 2014 0:32:40 GMT -5
Depressing how beholden to the Big Two the discussion was. Can't imagine voting for much of the short list, the readers choices were much more diverse and interesting. Sadly, and very, very reluctantly, I have to agree. :/ I love the show, this is known, I love this place, here, and youze people, and I shall continue to love and listen to the show and to eagerly be a part of this place, that's not going to change any time soon (and certainly not over something so subjective as a Best of The Year list), but my takeaway from the episode was more or less the same as yours, minus the short bit that I deleted from your post in the quote bubble up there. Marvel and DC made the "Best Publisher" list? I read a few Marvel books on the regs, and a couple of DC books, and what I read is good-to-outstanding (Gotham Academy, Batman, Rocket, Thor, Hawkeye, She Hulk, Cap Marvel, Miss Marvel, Secret Avengers, Daredevil, whathaveyou); i'm not knocking the creative talent, but fuck me, both of those companies are -on a corporate level- trying their very best to destroy comics right now, and I don't mean "destroy" in an positive, attempt-at-hipness sense. They both regularly, maliciously, and unabashedly engage in the very worst imaginable business practices, across the board. SHIELD #1 comes out this week at the $5 price point, a book that I would ostensibly be interested in because I love the show, a book that i've been calling for ever since the first episode debuted two Septembers ago, and a book that would theoretically be aimed at non-comic readers/new readers as well (again, fans of the show), and in the solicitation it proudly exclaims " Every issue: Twenty pages. One mission. Unlimited budget. Unlimited imagination. Six periods. And a helper monkey. Welcome to Level Eight. Welcome to S.H.I.E.L.D." Just to be clear, we're talking about a TV-show spinoff book that ought to be an outstretched hand to new readers, and potentially to kids/teens as well: Five Dollars. For twenty pages. WITH ads throughout (when Image is over here happily selling ad-less books, on better paper, at higher page counts, in a breathtaking variety of genres, with the very best creators, almost entirely at the $3 and $3.50 price point). It's obscene to say the least, it's certainly not customer friendly, new-reader friendly, or kid friendly, and it damn-well isn't what a "good" publisher would ever dream of doing in a thousand lifetimes. They shaved a couple of pages off of the norm (which was already a touch too-short, in my opinion), and jacked the price up another full dollar over what was already too much to pay for 10 minutes of reading, and they're doing it unapologetically. I'm a "Marvel guy" and even I'm just about fucking done with them. The final issue of Thor: God of Thunder, the Death of Wolverine issues, the Cap Marvel "anniversary" issue last week, and i'm sure many other books from them over the last 6-12 months: $5. That Captain America: Peggy Carter Agent of Shield #1 one-shot from a few weeks ago wasn't even that many pages (~100, though I don't know if they counted the ads in that total), and it was all reprinted material, and they slapped a pricetag on it that made me physically ill for a moment (and, again, i'm in their target audience for that); $8, wasn't it? You can buy all 160 pages of Saga Vol 1 for $8 on a good day! And DC's no better (though i'll at least give them the $3 price point on Gotham Academy, but just you wait, it'll jump all the way to $4 starting with the next arc); just look at their shenanigans with Batman. Shameful in every possible way, and the antithesis of how a "Best Publisher" ought to act. I don't care if you have to nominate the kid down the street who self publishes an Alt-Zine out of his fucking basement in order to fill the list (let alone, oh I dunno, Dark Horse, or Archie, the latter of which has had an incredible year that you guys have been nonstop, and correctly, raving about every week), there's no way either of the Big Two belong anywhere near that discussion. And I mean, come on, Injustice: Gods Among Us Year 3? That's . . really? Really?! Better than JL8, which is pretty much the best thing i've ever read in my life? Better than the Panel Syndicate stuff? I, too, like the Injustice game, but jeebus. I'll stop there, because i'm pretty sure i've just insulted the lot of you, which I really had no intention of doing, because I very genuinely am and will continue to be a fan, but sometimes my fingers just have to fing, and there's not much my brain can do about it, and honestly, I had to get that off my chest, 'cause it's been burning me up for the last couple of days. |
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Post by Bob Reyer on Dec 29, 2014 8:14:28 GMT -5
Let me say at the outset that these Forums are exactly the place for everyone to express their own opinions, particularly differing ones as they apply to our subjective (but we hope informed) choices for these "Best of..." discussions as long as we're all respectful of others, so let's try to keep that in mind, but a spirited debate is good for the soul and mind!
As to the breakdown of which publishers were selected, the actual books and series chosen are from farther afield, so while it seems apt to castigate us for neglecting the indies, you might be surprised moving forward.
For me personally, I am the "super-hero guy", as it was how I became hooked on comics in the first place, and then I branched into reading the sci-fi, horror, western, war and all the rest of the spectrum of genres being published. I still believe that there are fine stories to be told in the capes'n'cowls arena, and due to where the greatest characters still reside, many of those stories are going to come from The Big Two.
Related to that, and I'm not sure that I've mentioned this on-air, but having absorbed a lot of Science-Fiction and Horror through books and films over the last half-century, quite a few of the indie mini-series strike me as something that I have read or seen many, many times before (enough with post-apocalyptic and dystopian futures already--yeeessh!), so I'm less likely to be "wowed" when in my head an old movie on the same theme begins to un-spool!
(Tony, I couldn't agree more on the pricing issue, by the way. Marvel and DC should be looking towards some different and creative models, as opposed to trying to hold onto market dollar share via price increases!)
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Post by Huw on Dec 29, 2014 8:29:38 GMT -5
Depressing how beholden to the Big Two the discussion was. Can't imagine voting for much of the short list, the readers choices were much more diverse and interesting. Sadly, and very, very reluctantly, I have to agree. :/ I love the show, this is known, I love this place, here, and youze people, and I shall continue to love and listen to the show and to eagerly be a part of this place, that's not going to change any time soon (and certainly not over something so subjective as a Best of The Year list), but my takeaway from the episode was more or less the same as yours, minus the short bit that I deleted from your post in the quote bubble up there. Marvel and DC made the "Best Publisher" list? I read a few Marvel books on the regs, and a couple of DC books, and what I read is good-to-outstanding (Gotham Academy, Batman, Rocket, Thor, Hawkeye, She Hulk, Cap Marvel, Miss Marvel, Secret Avengers, Daredevil, whathaveyou); i'm not knocking the creative talent, but fuck me, both of those companies are -on a corporate level- trying their very best to destroy comics right now, and I don't mean "destroy" in an positive, attempt-at-hipness sense. They both regularly, maliciously, and unabashedly engage in the very worst imaginable business practices, across the board. SHIELD #1 comes out this week at the $5 price point, a book that I would ostensibly be interested in because I love the show, a book that i've been calling for ever since the first episode debuted two Septembers ago, and a book that would theoretically be aimed at non-comic readers/new readers as well (again, fans of the show), and in the solicitation it proudly exclaims " Every issue: Twenty pages. One mission. Unlimited budget. Unlimited imagination. Six periods. And a helper monkey. Welcome to Level Eight. Welcome to S.H.I.E.L.D." Just to be clear, we're talking about a TV-show spinoff book that ought to be an outstretched hand to new readers, and potentially to kids/teens as well: Five Dollars. For twenty pages. WITH ads throughout (when Image is over here happily selling ad-less books, on better paper, at higher page counts, in a breathtaking variety of genres, with the very best creators, almost entirely at the $3 and $3.50 price point). It's obscene to say the least, it's certainly not customer friendly, new-reader friendly, or kid friendly, and it damn-well isn't what a "good" publisher would ever dream of doing in a thousand lifetimes. They shaved a couple of pages off of the norm (which was already a touch too-short, in my opinion), and jacked the price up another full dollar over what was already too much to pay for 10 minutes of reading, and they're doing it unapologetically. I'm a "Marvel guy" and even I'm just about fucking done with them. The final issue of Thor: God of Thunder, the Death of Wolverine issues, the Cap Marvel "anniversary" issue last week, and i'm sure many other books from them over the last 6-12 months: $5. That Captain America: Peggy Carter Agent of Shield #1 one-shot from a few weeks ago wasn't even that many pages (~100, though I don't know if they counted the ads in that total), and it was all reprinted material, and they slapped a pricetag on it that made me physically ill for a moment (and, again, i'm in their target audience for that); $8, wasn't it? You can buy all 160 pages of Saga Vol 1 for $8 on a good day! And DC's no better (though i'll at least give them the $3 price point on Gotham Academy, but just you wait, it'll jump all the way to $4 starting with the next arc); just look at their shenanigans with Batman. Shameful in every possible way, and the antithesis of how a "Best Publisher" ought to act. I don't care if you have to nominate the kid down the street who self publishes an Alt-Zine out of his fucking basement in order to fill the list (let alone, oh I dunno, Dark Horse, or Archie, the latter of which has had an incredible year that you guys have been nonstop, and correctly, raving about every week), there's no way either of the Big Two belong anywhere near that discussion. And I mean, come on, Injustice: Gods Among Us Year 3? That's . . really? Really?! Better than JL8, which is pretty much the best thing i've ever read in my life? Better than the Panel Syndicate stuff? I, too, like the Injustice game, but jeebus. I'll stop there, because i'm pretty sure i've just insulted the lot of you, which I really had no intention of doing, because I very genuinely am and will continue to be a fan, but sometimes my fingers just have to fing, and there's not much my brain can do about it, and honestly, I had to get that off my chest, 'cause it's been burning me up for the last couple of days. I can't help but disagree with most of what you guys have said. I do totally agree with the $5 price point complaint, but those prices have always been for larger issues and only one-offs. It is something that is worrying in that it may lead to books permanently being priced that way, though. I do believe DC and Marvel totally warrant being on the shortlist. Saying that you shouldn't choose either of them because "a woman did something" and then say that other companies have done things "more diverse" seems a little contradictory to me. In Ms Marvel we've seen quite possibly the most important comic book of recent times in terms of pushing social conventions and equality. Not only do we have a female protagonist, she is Muslim, and as well as that she's written by a Muslim female, too. I know firsthand what this book means, not only to women, but to Muslims. The fact that they have a hero to call their own after decades of comic books being in popular culture is massive. Add to that the continuing success and fan base that Captain Marvel has. It is genuinely one of the stand out titles on the shelves and after sitting in on the Women in Marvel panel at NYCC, I know exactly how much that book (and Ms Marvel) mean. Not just from a storytelling point of view, but a cultural and inspirational one. These books are literally changing the industry from the inside. That's just talking about the titles Marvel have put out that are pushing the conventions in comics, they've also put out a lot of very good titles outside those. As for DC, diversifying what they've been offering has been no mean feat for them. Exploring new looks and feels to their existing titles, as well as introducing some wonderful new ones is a big deal that cannot be ignored. From Batgirl, Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight and Catwoman, all of which exist in the world of Batman which is the biggest draw in comics, these titles will bring about a lot of change. The fact that the big two are pushing themselves in this direction should not be overlooked, they are what casual and non-readers look to I'm comics and broadening their offering can only be a good thing. Next year, they could well be missing from this list if they rest on what they've done this year and stand still. But for this year I agree with their inclusion. |
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74
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Post by bpp on Dec 29, 2014 10:03:02 GMT -5
I'm not saying you shouldn't choose something 'because a woman did it'. To aledge such completely misrepresents what I've said and is ridiculous. I've said the choices were largely either Big Two ( or big two names' side projects) or Female led. I've no objection to female led content it's simply that that seemed to be the only caveat outside Big Two, largely due to the Stirling work done promoting that work done by other contributors. Huge swathes of comics are just relegated to the sidelines while we praise Marvel then DC's slight tilt to non-in-house styles.
Calling Cameron Stewart 'breakthru' by defining it in terms of 'he got his name noticed by the readers of DC' sums it up. An artist who has been a substantial name in the industry, travelled the globe as a guest of international cons, worked on multiple arcs of the main Hellboy on-going comic (the BPRD) is 'breakthru' because he did character designs and layouts on three issues of a DC mid-seller?
I'm glad Marvel have a female Muslim character, did Rebellion get on the Publisher of the year list for their multi-part female Muslim PSI judge story by Rennie & Beeby? Probably their readers were more used to having non-Christian religious characters in their material, with Judge Omar being a long standing figure of over a decade or publishing Pat Mill's Hindi focused Black Siddah. If the approach is to cherry pick one or two catch-up good things the big two did and overlook the vast amount of dross they churn then you can always find reasons to put them in as publisher of the year while the others never get their moment.
As for Bobs point, he's not the only old fart on these boards, I picked up Star*Reach back in the day. I'm actually pretty critical of images SCI-FI output beyond Prophet (Metal Hurlant refried) East Of West (Sergio Toppi meets Sergio leone) and Manhatten Projects (genuinely bampot). Bad Sci-fi can be just as bad as bad spandex, or just as boring, no argument there.
Hey maybe the next show will be full of praise for Rebellion, Titan, Dark Horse, renegade, Avatar, monkeybrains, IDW, fantagraphics, Johnathan Cape, Drawn & Quaterly, No Brow. Maybe even a mention of the demise of PictureBox? Such a great publisher. I'll certainly be listening as it's still a great show.
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Post by Huw on Dec 29, 2014 11:17:14 GMT -5
I'm not saying you shouldn't choose something 'because a woman did it'. To aledge such completely misrepresents what I've said and is ridiculous. I've said the choices were largely either Big Two ( or big two names' side projects) or Female led. I've no objection to female led content it's simply that that seemed to be the only caveat outside Big Two, largely due to the Stirling work done promoting that work done by other contributors. Huge swathes of comics are just relegated to the sidelines while we praise Marvel then DC's slight tilt to non-in-house styles. Calling Cameron Stewart 'breakthru' by defining it in terms of 'he got his name noticed by the readers of DC' sums it up. An artist who has been a substantial name in the industry, travelled the globe as a guest of international cons, worked on multiple arcs of the main Hellboy on-going comic (the BPRD) is 'breakthru' because he did character designs and layouts on three issues of a DC mid-seller? I'm glad Marvel have a female Muslim character, did Rebellion get on the Publisher of the year list for their multi-part female Muslim PSI judge story by Rennie & Beeby? Probably their readers were more used to having non-Christian religious characters in their material, with Judge Omar being a long standing figure of over a decade or publishing Pat Mill's Hindi focused Black Siddah. If the approach is to cherry pick one or two catch-up good things the big two did and overlook the vast amount of dross they churn then you can always find reasons to put them in as publisher of the year while the others never get their moment. As for Bobs point, he's not the only old fart on these boards, I picked up Star*Reach back in the day. I'm actually pretty critical of images SCI-FI output beyond Prophet (Metal Hurlant refried) East Of West (Sergio Toppi meets Sergio leone) and Manhatten Projects (genuinely bampot). Bad Sci-fi can be just as bad as bad spandex, or just as boring, no argument there. Hey maybe the next show will be full of praise for Rebellion, Titan, Dark Horse, renegade, Avatar, monkeybrains, IDW, fantagraphics, Johnathan Cape, Drawn & Quaterly, No Brow. Maybe even a mention of the demise of PictureBox? Such a great publisher. I'll certainly be listening as it's still a great show. My apologies, I didn't mean to misrepresent what you said. I'll happily retract that part of what I said. Sadly, smaller publishers like Rebellion are usually overlooked, something which I totally admit I'm guilty of. Unfortunately due to my budget I have to stick to a lot of books I read habitually, many of which are from the big two. That being said, I've read and enjoyed quite a lot of Boom/Archaia's output this year and Image constantly put out new and exciting books. Maybe I'm just speaking due to things I've seen as a result of the titles that DC and Marvel have put out at this year. The fact of the matter will always be the smaller publishers will often be overlooked by readers. Comic reading isn't cheap (and as previously mentioned, is worryingly looking like getting more expensive which Marvel and DC need to be held to task for) and the clout of the big two will more often than not mean their books get picked up off the shelves before others purely due to people sticking to titles such as Spider-Man, Batman, Superman etc. I can only speak for what I've seen and as a result I have no issue with Marvel and DC being there. |
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Post by angelus104 on Dec 29, 2014 12:13:40 GMT -5
Just want to ring in here and say this. I'm never frustrated by criticism or by disagreements. I want them. I want us to be pushed to do better. However, I do bristle at any accusation that states in anyway that we aren't giving our honest and most well intentioned opinions on these topics. We have no motivation other than passion and love to do these things. If we aren't reflecting your feelings please feel free to write in with your votes. He reason we poll the audience is because a group of thousands will always be able to read more than just the 4 of us.
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bpp
Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Posts: 74
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Post by bpp on Dec 29, 2014 12:28:20 GMT -5
Hello Angelus, I don't think that it has been in any way suggested that anyone, on the podcast or the forums, is dishonest or less than well intentioned. If that's what you've taken from anything that I've written then I apologise wholeheartedly.
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Post by tundra on Dec 29, 2014 12:32:03 GMT -5
I just wanted to add to this thread to say that I completely agree with Stephanie's almost-nomination of Vanessa del Rey as a breakthrough artist. I didn't get around to reading Hit 1955 until after the readers' contributions to the best of lists, but I thought it was fantastic. She brought a lot of the noir atmosphere of Sean Phillips along with the more kinetic cartooning of Darwyn Cooke's Parker work. Looking forward to seeing more from her.
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Post by ironfist4270 on Dec 29, 2014 13:13:45 GMT -5
I think we have to keep in mind that there is only so much one person can consume when it comes to comics. A lot of the stuff making peoples list didn't make mine simply because I didn't have enough time or money to read them. I'm sure there are books on my list that aren't half as good as some of the stuff out this year but I can only comment on what I've read. Same goes for these guys. If they weren't keeping up with some of the very good stuff the big two are putting out, there might be just as much if not more criticism about that.
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Post by henrythemorerecent on Dec 29, 2014 14:50:00 GMT -5
I was curious if anyone from the TC crew could answer this question: This was recorded some weeks ago. But since then so much has come out that is amazing whether it be ongoing, limited, even just covers that are amazing that won't make it onto the list because it came out after the show was recorded (my mind is going straight to the Loot Crate Pantera/Batman variant cover Greg Capullo did) so do you guys include the very latter part of the year in the following years discussion so it doesn't miss out or do you strictly limit the discussion to what was release that year?
Also off that topic. I'm so suprised at the discussion thats happening about the big 2 being on there? Firstly, this is the opinion of 4 people on a podcast. I don't remember them saying "Everything we say in this show you HAVE to agree with". It's their opinion. Which is also why they give us more than enough opportunities to voice ours. If half the people complaining about that had their own podcast, they would surely leave Marvel and DC off the list and then THEIR listeners would rant on their forum about "RAH RAH why didn't you include the Big 2".
Secondly, I feel like one of the few people who reads comics because of superheroes anymore. Not saying I don't read independent comics either, and there are MANY of those I love. But when it comes to publishers, I do not see how having DC and Marvel on there are a bad thing. Yes they are "big corporations" but last I checked the reason most people (and I mean MOST people) love comics is because of loving superheroes either in comic form or movie. Add to that the fact they have progressed this year more than ever. Who cares if its a big corporation. You listen to how Bendis or Snyder talk about their books on either side of the fence, they talk about them with so much love and passion, sure they may work for big companies, but they still put out material they love and want to share with people. Sure indie comics are the reason a lot of new people are reading comics. But last I checked kids aren't rushing to the comic store to pick up the latest issue of Wytches (I love Wytches, just using it as an example). The big 2 are important. Who the hell reads comics based on sales and company statistics and decisions. Comics are stories. You read them to be entertained or to make you think. Not to then pull up your freaking Powerpoint presentation with your pie-charts on sales and which company is more evil this year. Has it really become that hard to just enjoy something that is made for enjoyment? A company may have monetary goals, but they need to produce a product in order to make that money. And that product needs to be quality. And that is what we'ere getting. ARGH! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Then again this is an online forum.
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Post by angelus104 on Dec 29, 2014 15:37:04 GMT -5
I was curious if anyone from the TC crew could answer this question: This was recorded some weeks ago. But since then so much has come out that is amazing whether it be ongoing, limited, even just covers that are amazing that won't make it onto the list because it came out after the show was recorded (my mind is going straight to the Loot Crate Pantera/Batman variant cover Greg Capullo did) so do you guys include the very latter part of the year in the following years discussion so it doesn't miss out or do you strictly limit the discussion to what was release that year? Really good question and the answer is yes. Anything that falls outside of our cutoff date for end of the year is qualified for awards next year! |
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Post by IncredibleD on Dec 29, 2014 15:54:12 GMT -5
Looks to me like a damned if you do damned if you don't kind of situation, some people are going to be upset that the Big Two are on the list, but i think that maybe even more people were going to be upset if they weren't on the list.Times like these i'm glad i'm not a podcaster  .But i understand both sides of the discussion. Time for some positivity, i always like when these nomination shows are making me discover new books.Last year i started reading Dark Horse and the Mignolaverse thanks to the TC crew talking about Hellboy Midnight Circus and BPRD Vampire on their nomination shows.Thanks to this episode i discovered The Abominable Charles Chistopher.I love Kerschl art on Gotham Academy so when i heard that he did this webcomic i decided to check it out, and i can't stop reading it, its beautiful, funny, and emotional, i'm really liking it so far.So thanks for that! |
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.But i understand both sides of the discussion.